Yes he certainly does not pull any punches with regards to Star Citizen.

His reasoning feels a bit like "I can't imagine how they will pull it off, so it's impossible." for me. Sure he has experience in that area, but even then.

Yeah, one definitely gets the distinct feeling that this guy is not being very objective, but he does bring up some good points.  First, it does seem RSI is going to have to invest a very large amount of time modifying CryEngine.  That engine was clearly not designed for what they are trying to do, certainly even RSI has admitted that.  One has to imagine that they will encounter some rather major and insurmountable barriers as their game grows in scope.  We'll see what happens when double precision is both implemented, and being utilized (as in maps to big for single floats).  Not that I really know what I'm talking about, but I imagine that would be a very major modification, and how well RSI can pull it off may go a long way to showing how well they will be able to Frankenstein-ify the engine in the future.

Another major problem I think RSI are going to have, and it may indeed be the biggest one, is public perception.  To be fair, I think most of the problems they have had, and are going to have, are really not RSI's fault.  If you actually pay attention to what they say, they are usually somewhat measured when it comes to the details of implementation of individual features and they certainly share an unprecedented amount of information on the development process (certainly far more than any other developer working on any other game).  For one, I don't think Chris Roberts has ever stated an unequivocal release date for any specific feature.  I don't think that's a bad thing, I think he knows that he has a mammoth project and that he's not at a point yet where he can make firm predictions.  As far as "feature creep" goes, Star Citizen is now far past the point of "creep" and in a full-on bull-rush to insanity.  But, again, if you really pay attention to what they say, they know and try to make clear that it's going to be a very long process.  I like to draw an analogy to EVE Online.  There are new features in it all the time now, 12 years after it's release.  If you listen to what Chris Roberts says, it sounds as if he thinks this is the type of model people should have in mind.  To be honest, and I'm sure a lot of people would give me a ton of flak for saying this, I don't really care if many of the features they talked about ever get implemented.  I still think it's ok they talk about them (though maybe not as specific fundraising goals, a practice which they've mercifully stopped).

Having said all that, I absolutely cannot believe that people are still giving them MORE money.  I'm not talking about new backers, I'm talking about the people who are buying the absolutely absurd $400 lifetime insurance policies for capital ships.  Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE for Star Citizen to be the kind of thing where I thought it was worth it to blow a ton of cash on a virtual ship.  But why in the world would anyone give them MORE money when they are so early in the development process?  I can't help but think that, in the long run, the sales of really expensive ships are actually going to do them more harm than good.  I think people on the outside rightfully think that this is completely crazy, and then extrapolate (I think, wrongly) that the whole thing is some sort of scam.  I'm a backer of theirs, I'm glad I'm a backer of theirs, I have in relatively little money, and if an when they are much further along and have an impressive product which has demonstrated its worth, I might give them more money for something.  Before that happens, I really cannot imagine why I'd give them another dime.  And that's certainly nothing against them, I fully EXPECT them to take a long time get delayed many times.  So, I agree with one thing STOP GIVING THEM MORE MONEY.  It's giving them a public image problem which will be their undoing.  

When Blizzard delays a game, people know that it's because it SHOULD be delayed, and that the final product will be better as a result.  That's the sort of thing that can and should happen with all major AAA developers.  RSI will have to earn the right to do that sort of thing without scathing criticism.  Star Citizen will take a very long time, that's ok, but people giving them wheelbarrows full of cash for pipe dreams is certainly not going to help them attain the credibility which may, in the end, be more profitable.

The hard fact that Derek is pointing out, and who could know it any better, is the Engine problem in extended space games with both space and planetary actions. Besides, we have seen with The Precursors that it's almost a miracle that the game eventually came out and had to be ripped of many parts that the devs wanted to be included. I hope that the same fate will not happen with SC, but I doubt.

Fact is that a lot of people have  bought parts of the game but not the game itself. A surprising trend because I doubt that even the devs of SC know exactly what they are going to throw over board due to engine problems combined with performance and playability, only to speak about this aspect. Such buyers could well remain with some wallpaper on their machines...

These are serious arguments brought by Derek and I don't minimally think that he got carried away. He may not be right by saying the game is never going to be released, but some of the magnificiant features are in danger to be thrown out or ripped to an insignificant part as for game immersion.

Personally, I'm most interested in the Squadron 42 developement, I really hope this part of the game will contain all the classical space sim features that come along with a real Free Roaming, indipendent of the MMO stuff. And this would mean good dedicated work of ship and NPC AI, these are foreign words for MMO games usually. But If I have to do X number of missions and that's it, then I can as well continue to play WC4 or WC5, there would be nothing new under the sun. I hope that's not it.

XenonS

I think that Derek points out are interesting things.

For one, the decision to drop the FPS part (if I understood it correctly, correct me when wrong) is from a technical and development viewpoint a very good decision in my opinion. It will cause drama, but trying to marry a spacesim with an FPS game is a hard task to do which only a few have successfully accomplished so far (Derek with BC3000, SW Battlefront and David Hoeft with Shores of Hazeron are a few noteworthy people and games in this).

It can definately be done, but some things have to suffer then, and that's the core thing Derek points out. Trying to do it all will make all parts suffer considerably, which is something we don't want.

Personally, I think the story will be very similar to how it went with Freelancer. Mile high expectations, and in the end it fell very short of that. Nonetheless, Freelancer was and is in my opinion a very enjoyable game. It may not have delivered on expectations, but it did definately deliver on value for money.

I myself have sunk 250$ in Star Citizen, and I will patiently wait till they say it is done. Then I will see how the game is, and if it's enjoyable, I'm then already okay with that. If it will be a Freelancer or Wing Commander with upgraded graphical fidelity, I would already be happy with that. And that's the level where I put my expectations on, regardless of what the dev is saying. And that concept certainly is feasible for RSI and some of the people on board have shown they can make games like that.

Don't sink money into a game if you can't afford to lose it. It's pretty much borrowing someone money with no guarantee to get it back. That's quite my viewpoint on crowdfunded games. People spending 450$ on ships or so, well, if they are okay with that themselves, then let them be. But it's something I myself find distasteful and is something I just won't engage in. 250$ for me was in hindsight already too much, but I'll roll with it since it's a decision already made.

For the rest, I will see how much the game will deliver on playability, fun and maybe expectations once it reaches a playable state 😉

I think that Derek points out are interesting things.

 

For one, the decision to drop the FPS part (if I understood it correctly, correct me when wrong) is from a technical and development viewpoint a very good decision in my opinion. It will cause drama, but trying to marry a spacesim with an FPS game is a hard task to do which only a few have successfully accomplished so far (Derek with BC3000, SW Battlefront and David Hoeft with Shores of Hazeron are a few noteworthy people and games in this).

 

(...)

 

Hi robske,

well, Star Citizen taking away the FPS: that's really surprising news for me, are you sure you are not talking about Derek's foresights in this regard? Taking this away is just RSI saying "Oh, thanks everybody, you all have baked me for $80 M, but you'll get about $5 M delivered, how will I eat up 75 M? ...". I'm not sure they would survive it and the whole Kickstarter and baking stuff would slowly but surely leave the scene with a branded robbery image. No, they have to deliver - or refund. Have they been trapped in a big wave of high expectations ? I don't think so by judging the various news updates of SC. But the working 'behind' the scenes are secret for sure, Derek's assumptions are only based on his own experiences in taking space sims to such vast extends, and although he's seeing SC as being a soap bubble ready to explode, he's really hoping for the best.

Your examples of space sims with both space + planet actions are well chosen, and the devs have certainly faced basic problems in integrating 2 sort of engines, for space + fps.

One downgrade which is feasable is to get away from the - oh so magic perceived - seamless transitions when going on planets. That's not necessary at all. The Precursors did it, Parkan II does it, Salvation Prophecy does it well, all with cutscenes, Derek does it too with Battlecruiser, yes, but you are indeed too busy flying to notice the new loading 🙂 So Derek is using a 'trick' there. It all broils down to make the change to the secondary engine fast, or get the player busy in the meantime.

All this to say that these problems can be solved without throwing the FPS part away.

Is Shores of Hazeron a purely Multiplayer game? I'd really like to have some alternative to The Precursors or Battlecruiser, until No Man's Sky come out of course...

I'm playing X:Rebirth, there are space station and ship interiors where you walk and talk, but no FPS action.

Greets,

XenonS

Hi robske,

well, Star Citizen taking away the FPS: that's really surprising news for me, are you sure you are not talking about Derek's foresights in this regard? Taking this away is just RSI saying "Oh, thanks everybody, you all have baked me for $80 M, but you'll get about $5 M delivered, how will I eat up 75 M? ...". I'm not sure they would survive it and the whole Kickstarter and baking stuff would slowly but surely leave the scene with a branded robbery image. No, they have to deliver - or refund. Have they been trapped in a big wave of high expectations ? I don't think so by judging the various news updates of SC. But the working 'behind' the scenes are secret for sure, Derek's assumptions are only based on his own experiences in taking space sims to such vast extends, and although he's seeing SC as being a soap bubble ready to explode, he's really hoping for the best.

 

Your examples of space sims with both space + planet actions are well chosen, and the devs have certainly faced basic problems in integrating 2 sort of engines, for space + fps.

One downgrade which is feasable is to get away from the - oh so magic perceived - seamless transitions when going on planets. That's not necessary at all. The Precursors did it, Parkan II does it, Salvation Prophecy does it well, all with cutscenes, Derek does it too with Battlecruiser, yes, but you are indeed too busy flying to notice the new loading 🙂 So Derek is using a 'trick' there. It all broils down to make the change to the secondary engine fast, or get the player busy in the meantime.

All this to say that these problems can be solved without throwing the FPS part away.

 

Is Shores of Hazeron a purely Multiplayer game? I'd really like to have some alternative to The Precursors or Battlecruiser, until No Man's Sky come out of course...

I'm playing X:Rebirth, there are space station and ship interiors where you walk and talk, but no FPS action.

 

Greets,

XenonS

1. As I said, I just assumed that part. If it is speculation and not true at all (as in, announced by RSI), then I take back those words. It certainly can be done. And a useful way to do it has been done in Freelancer (!) through the planetary landing cutscenes. Just make it play some 30 seconds cutscene or so which depics the ship landing at the city. Heck, even a landing in progress screen which pops up a generic infocard on the area could do the job 🙂 So I definately think RSI can marry Freelancer with Wing Commander with an objective based shooter or so. That's only a small wee bit higher than Freelancer and WC got. Still, it provides challenges, but there are definately things which just work fine here.

2. Shores of Hazeron is purely multiplayer yes.

3. Nice that you mention X Rebirth. I do not know the inner workings there. All I do think is that since X Rebirth has no FPS parts, it provides way less performance hogging (in a game which had MASSIVE performance issues early on, as with any egosoft game based on a new engine 😉 ) and since there's no FPS part and the spaceships use their AI for combat, high performance isn't needed then 😉 And when you're in space, the station environment usually isn't loaded at all, right?

According to what they have said so far they are most certainly NOT dropping FPS.  One thing to remember is that they are using CryEngine which was built specifically for FPS.  They actually have shown quite a lot of FPS footage already.  My understanding is that the main reason that the FPS is being delayed is because of issues with netcode.  

Here is the original post:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14803-Letter-From-The-Chairman

And here is an update:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14815-Star-Marine-Status-Update

To tell you the truth, I kind of wish the whole thing were a single-player game, at least to start out with.  For me, anything that is multiplayer has looming issues of time consumption and flexibility.  I can't tell you how much it irritates me not to be able to just save something and exit whenever the hell I feel like it.  That's something I deserve to be able to do when playing a game.  Obviously as things stand multiplayer is a huge component of Star Citizen, so we have to wait for them to fumble around with netcode.

I have always commented that SC has some big hype to fill and if Mr. Roberts can make that happen people will throw even more money at them. If I remember correctly the schedule we should start seeing some major feature releases in 2016 so I will be interested what is available at that time. I haven't been to much in a hurry to update my client because I still need a solid video card to play this beast.

And I think CIG will use that to their advantage at first for anyone complaining of issues. The requirements for the game is a little steep if you want to play it with a decent framerate. Myself personally I would like to see them first create the open universe so people can traverse it, then add planet and station usage and exploration, then FPS battle scenarios (ie ship capture and station looting).

What CIG is trying to add is really a huge project and I am surprised this didn't come up sooner about can they deliver it all? With support of the fans I would say yes, CIG has been pretty good about releasing info and that usually keeps the fans happy and people get to play with alpha modules as they get released.

If they just give me open universe with no loading, dockable stations that you can explore and interact with and planets to land on and also explore and interact with they will have a fan for life.

I know myself I cannot wait for Squadron 42 because I was a huge WC fan and loved the SP experience and want to see what they do with it. I wish them luck and I haven't heavily invested in this game because I wanted to minimize the risk just in case it wasn't what I dreamed of and would probably spend more money on it after I get to play the finished product.... I will be a happy gamer if they give me the power to recreate SSC in the game 🙂

Smarts blog seems to have rattled them and Ben Lennick goes through some of the concerns here https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/271173/some-thoughts-on-concerns

I'm not so sure Derek's lone-dev experiences hold up to today's modern software dev teams.

Also, claiming that SC is over-reaching is a bit rich coming from Derek, considering he was probably a lot worse back in the day

I'm not so sure Derek's lone-dev experiences hold up to today's modern software dev teams.

 

Also, claiming that SC is over-reaching is a bit rich coming from Derek, considering he was probably a lot worse back in the day

Yes, I agree, but it's a tragedy that Derek's Battlecruiser games came out when most of his features where rather new and revolutionary. The reason of his games having received such bad critics is that "Free Roaming", wich today is accomplished by procedural games and 'open worlds', was totally missunderstood at the time. Free Roaming was only a game option in Derek's games, without any guide or pointer, however the gamers considered it as a major feature, a big mistake, although the game manual was exhaustive, but too much :=)

I have played exhaustively Universal Combat, and I understand that the main reason of negative critics are: the presentation of the game. There are no in-game tutorials and all the stuff we see today as beeing normally included in a complex game. Derek has faced problems that nobody else was facing and were yet to be discovered...

Yet Derek's experience in coding and everything related in "Engine" problems, whatever this means for developers, overweights in my opinion his personal failures of the past. But are they really failures? I doubt. So his arguments are to be taken seriously.

In just 10 years the gaming industry has evolved in a totally new one. But Derek doesn't seem to realize that today, the developers are looking actively to communicate with potential gamers, also just to know where they stand, in order to know if their game have a chance to succeed. Steam, Youtube, Kickstarter and even Blogs, all these are powerful factors. And without the gamers nothing goes. Chris Roberts and Star Citizen are totally in the trend of all this, and with a high chance of success IMO.

The alpha, beta, or Early Releases on Steam are a good example. For instance, I don't know the heck how I will get my ship to fly in Pulsar: Lost Colony, also there are 56 Devlogs in form of Youtube videos talking about the game, yet the titles don't say anything about the video content (please, guys !!), but I'm curious enough to try the game and maybe give my feedback. So a game can get better, or give an idea to the developer about an aspect to take in... Little details, but they count.

Derek didn't get this chance in the 90s or later just because the whole gaming industry was different and also the expectations.

XenonS

More developments concerning Mr Smart here & here.

Derek does rise some valid points. Like it or not.

SC is BIG. Bigger than most undertakings in Gaming-history.

And Smarts Battlecruiser way back did, what SC is trying now.  

And it rumbles on with this post on SC https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5304637/#Comment_5304637

 

I believe I can clarify this. We refunded Mr. Smart’s package because he was using Star Citizen as a platform to gain attention as part of a campaign to promote his ‘Line of Defense’ space game. Our ToS (or in this case, the Kickstarter ToS) allows us to refund troubled users who we would rather not have interacting with the community.

Maybe a poor choice of wording their and it carries on with PC Invasion saying they have  had this reply http://www.pcinvasion.com/cig-explain-derek-smarts-star-citizen-refund-smart-disputes-claims

 

“Contrary to what they posted” he tells PC Invasion, “I have NEVER – EVER – posted on ANY RSI [Roberts Space Industries] forum or website, nor advertised ANYTHING. My blog is mine, and I can post ANYTHING I want in it.”

This has literally become the proverbial can of worms and may have far reaching ramifications for CIG in the future way beyond this incident with Mr Smart. I sure hope they know what they are doing.

Seems to have been a bad knee jerk reaction to his blog but as refunds go does it only apply to the Kickstarter which only generated a small percentage of the total as the vast majority of the total raised come from their own crowd funding and have they now set a precedent for anyone else fed up of waiting.

Smart does have a point and maybe RSI should have concentrated more on the core game, but you have to remember that they are starting from scratch and it takes time to set up, buy equipment, recruit staff and sort who does the cleaning ect ect.

Smart updated his blog http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/07/interstellar-justice/

Sit back and watch the show.

Bring the popcorn!!!

The whole discussion starting with Derek's blog article is getting in dark waters and the tone rather offensive, I don't like it, but the devs of RSI shouldn't have published on their forums that Derek has been refunded, that goes against privacy rules IMO which is serious and gives Derek many reasons to complain, his blog article not being the main factor any more.

Anyhow Derek is free to express personal opinions in his blog and he never crossed the line of diffamation of any kind.

Where should a game dev express his opinions about another game if not in his personal blog? Posting such ideas on game forums, or worse: on a RSI forum, yes, that would have been questionable, because making games yourself will make any of your judgments biased, you cannot remain objective, but AFAIK he never did. Also RSI saying Derek was riding SC as a platform for his own games is just vapor and ridiculous, are they psychic, can they read in someone's mind?

It remains that Derek should have chosen a better word choice in his blog, not everything goes. It's a huge difference to say that you disagree with how a game is made compared to say your game "will never be released, never". That's a strong statement that could mislead many people, also it can be plain wrong, and Derek should know that. Though he should not play the surprised guy when it comes to reactions.

XenonS

I think people are gonna flame me but generally I think Derek Smart has something here. I have stated in many posts that I thought RSI was promising too much and could be opening a huge disappointment if they don't deliver the goods they are promising.

This quote is concerning too me personally since I am a huge WC fan and what drew me into funding Star Citizen was Squadron 42 and if this rumor is true.... I will be quite mad at RSI/CIG:

 

These reports range from rapidly dwindling funds left to see the project to completion; to a new report that SQ42 is almost a year away if they don’t reduce the scope, and that it is now going to be an episodic game, in which the first episode (about 3hrs long without cut-scenes) is free, while future episodes are going to be paid DLC. Add to the fact that the Star Citizen project (aka PU) is apparently still vaporware, and you can quickly see where this is going.

If I remember the kickstarter and the videos correctly this was pitched as a full game at release and not episodic. If they go that route it almost proves they over-stepped and assumed way too much work they can't get done within the promised timeframe.

So I think Derek is on too something and I have suspected this for some time. Like the latest news I read about the FPS module (Star Marine) going to be released soon for people to play on. Why?? I could care less about this module, I want the open/persistent universe that was talked about, I want that Freelancer experience, I want the WC story portion like Squadron 42 which was all in the kickstarter. We are what 2.5+ yrs into development and we really don't have much at all.

Yeah i haven't logged into my RSI/CIG account lately to update my game client in months because I was getting bored with the slow progress. Where are we on the persistent universe thats what i want to know? I don't own Elite: Dangerous yet but least they produced most of what was promised in a short timeframe and if I remember those kickstarters came out close together?

Provide us with the core of the game that we all funded first and then add these extras. Provide me with that FL type experience I was hoping I was going to get. I know 2016 has been kicked around a lot as the year to expect results, but with all the money thrown at this game and its development it should be out sooner personally.

I want Star Citizen and Squadron 42 to be very successful and deliver the experience that I envision for it. RSI/CIG has some big promises to fill and I do hope they fill them because what has been talked about this game seems to be the ultimate space game that will rule them all. The scope of this project is huge and games with lower scope had much bigger budgets in the hundreds of millions for development and SC/Squadron 42 going to be produced for around $100mil.... doubt it highly. This is where I think Derek Smart has something, he knows what goes into game development and its funding and he is just stating that they obviously don't have enough to create what they have promised.

He has some valid points regardless of the presentation of them. The media and press has been giving RSI/CIG a pass on those tough questions and maybe people should start asking them.

Look at the kickstarter ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen#description ) now with reaching 6mil look at what we were promised and back in 2012 they had a estimated release date of end of 2014. That was probably doable if they stuck to the kickstarter and stopped all this other stuff they have been doing. They have made another $80mil over that stretch goal and we have nothing of note yet. It would be a different story if all of us were playing in the early access of the persistant universe but we are not.

I am not bashing the game I am irritated that the fans of the game are not more concerned about the progress of it.

Well I am not taking sides here but for the sake of balance I think its fair to hear what Chris himself has to say in regards to how feasible the game is to finish. Here is the latest 10 for the chairman and the vid starts at that question. There is also more info in the video regarding other things too.

(Just thought I should make clear, after reading what I wrote, I didn't so much like my tone, it was supposed to sound more amiable.  I'm not really "against" the above post by DarkOne, I agree with much of it.  The below touches on the same subjects incidentally, it's not addressing that particular post.)

  look at what we were promised and back in 2012 they had a estimated release date of end of 2014

I think there are a lot of people who see the timetable as the single most important indicator of the "final" quality of the project.  A lot of people will hate me for saying this, but, of all the things that concern me about SC, the above is definitely NOT one of them, especially with the unprecedented openness of CIG's development process.  I don't want that to sound like a completely fanboy statement; I definitely am extremely concerned about their business model.  

That said, games take a long time.  How long do you think Bethesda has been working on Fallout 4?  All of the systems were in place for Fallout 4, all indications are that it is just Fallout with better graphics.  In addition to that, Bethesda is an enormous, well established company that has been around for all eternity (in gaming terms).  Does anybody think this makes Bethesda incompetent?  I sure don't, I think they are some of the most talented people in the industry.  CIG not only have to completely re-purpose a game engine (to something which is completely general purpose) but on a logistical level they have had to build their organization.  It's going to take a long time.  Period.  I wish people would get a little more comfortable with that.  I am not even in the slightest bit surprised or disappointed about the timetable.  I think it would behoove CIG to compare to EVE online more frequently.  EVE has been in development for 12 years, if CCP had advertised half of the features that now exist in the game when it was first published, every troll, and half of all reasonable, level-headed people, would have laughed at them.

I think the fundamental problem with Star Citizen is that people's expectations are not only so high, but (perhaps more importantly) so variegated, that anything they do will ultimately be seen by many as a failure.  To make things worse, I think CIG's dubious business model exacerbates this.  If you sell people lifetime insurance on ships which haven't been implemented yet for absolutely ABSURD prices (oh yeah, are they absurd), for a game which hasn't been developed yet, then people, for good reason, expect a hell of a lot.  In addition, the acerbic nature of internet commentary means that other people who see this happening will yell and scream very loudly about how evil and conspiratorial it all is.

For me personally, I just want a good space-sim.  I don't care about 75% of the features they have now talked about.  I wish more than anything that space-sims could have the kind of resurgence that RPG's have seen.  I don't need a space-sim "best thing ever", all I really need is a space-sim Divinity Original Sin (preferably with a less stupid name).  So far, Star Citizen has a simulation that feels roughly like I expect a spaceship to feel.  Elite Dangerous has failed to do that, and frankly, there's really nothing else new out there right now.  The core mechanics of SC are certainly still not quite right, in my opinion, but so far I am satisfied with the start, even if I do scoff at their business model, so my real opinion is on hold.  All I can do is hope.

I personally trust CIG, Mr Roberts strikes me as a George Lucas type who is a perfectionist & I am willing to bet, (which I did in the amount of $900 on ships weapons & patches for jackets as well as upgrading my rig & gaming flight chair which was about $4000) that not only will he produce what he says he will but also come out with additional content (movies, tv series as well as DLC for the game).  Which I am sure he will be sending invites to those for their heaping serving of crow. Please keep in mind I am well over 50 yrs old ex military on a fixed income & not one for whimsical or frivolous ventures. I read quite a bit & watched many pod casts before pledging even my first $40 before a year later pledging for my Connie & freelancer & upgrading to my Super Hornet. Have spent many hours playing arena commander & consider money well spent as this is my hobby & it keeps me out of the bingo hall. I have no reservations & believe the additional content is taking more time.

Also please keep in mind this has never been done before on the level of fidelity & detail that Mr. Roberts has in mind, in short this will be a game changing event & will raise the bar much higher than the other major game developers care for. It will come, & it will be well worth the wait. 🙂

Shadowma