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Humble Book Bundle ends on 9/11/2019


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  • #79288
    AvatarPotsmoke66
    Participant

    nonetheless try these

    http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/facegen_power_of_two.7z

    they was located under icons, them are even not 2^2, perhaps due to a rescaling of the content of the icons folder?

    i don’t know, just try the ones i uploaded, and tell us if it has worked out.

    perhaps a little up and down is allowed, i can’t neither tell, but as example that the odd ffed3d icons appear in 1600×1024, as well as in 1680×1050, it results into not exactly the same relation but still works in both, FFE is 320×200 or 8:5

    i can see now what you mean it’s true they was irregular to, but nonetheless, it could be that, until they got sort it out where that comes from, take the rescaled ones.

    i would be really surprised if that didn’t helps.

    i know it’s a fact, you will have to respect the power of two rule, of course a texture can be rescaled internally when caching to memory, which cost’s a little extra time then i guess.

    marcel, guess how a texture… no, how a mesh gets distributed to a texture, the texture has ALWAYS the size and RELATION 1:1.

    i guess otherwise it isn’t possible to handle them, but of course can a GFX card rescale to, i guess that’s perhaps a reason why my ATI could produce different sized texture patches on a landscape, it makes then a “chaotic” look, small tiles, 8×8 up to big tiles 32×32 mixed, with using always the same texture. while my NVIDIA can’t do such.

    but you can’t have everything, i guess either you can use irregular textures by default or you can mix scales but irregular texture are then not to handle (sounds logical no?) how should the card arrange them then? with quadratic i can imagine how that works, because you will always have a fitting value then (e.g 1st tex 32×32, on one side bordered by 8×8+8×8+16×16, next side perhaps 8×8+16×16, next 32×32 tile… and so on, can you imagine such, looks great for carpet golfing :lol:. while regular like i have now it looks like a checkerboard.

    btw, chaotic arranged was only possible with OpenGL, when i run the game via DirectX i had checkerboard look to.

    therefore i could add mower lines (is that right?) by pressing of a key under DX, which wasn’t possible with OpenGL (also logical, how should that work when they are arranged chaotic?).




    Humble Book Bundle ends on 9/11/2019


    #79289
    MarcelMarcel
    Participant

    Thanks a lot man! I’m downloading them now and I’ll try it out tomorrow. ๐Ÿ˜€

    #79290
    AvatarPotsmoke66
    Participant

    just as example, has not much to do with space sims but with texture use

    ordered use of texture

    TWPGA2K%20-%20Intellivision%20PGA.jpg

    disordered use of texture

    INTVnew_02.jpg

    fairway texture is exactly the same in both cases

    all textures made by potsmoke66 ๐Ÿ˜‰

    #79291
    Avatarrobn
    Participant

    I can’t think why the compression would make a difference. The pieces are loaded, decompressed and assembled into a face before being converted to a texture and pushed to the card.

    I also have no idea what all this power-of-two business is about.

    #79292
    AvatarPotsmoke66
    Participant

    no it’s not the compressing (by compression i mean the huffman table).

    it’s the regular or irregular size that makes the difference.

    we had this problem 3/4 years ago, if i am right first reported by Marcel, because i posted some pictures of the lanner and he said he has no textures on the lanner. soon one or two followed and said, yes we haven’t to, but we thought it’s normal.

    then i got after it, first i was assuming the wrong thing (compression, sorry my fault, i mixed up things already then), like often. and i guess it was Coolhand who gave me the hint, that this rule (8,16,32,64,128……) always has to be kept (it’s good to have such a experienced modeler aside who isn’t to eager to let himself down to our degree ๐Ÿ˜€ ).

    then i remembered, yes i cut the texture for the lanner at midst, to make different color stripes possible, but i didn’t wanted to use the whole texture for it. bottom and top had then each a texture size of 512×1024.

    o.k, i made them quadratic again, and everybody was satisfied. :mrgreen:

    since that i always kept this rule, and also marcel did so, because he knew his problem and apart from that he would have been the first who noticed it. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    btw, coolhand is a freelancing modeler, so he knows “industrial standards” well.

    you don’t have to care where that comes from as modeler, just keep the rule if you like to sell your models to a release on the market.

    really i can’t explain, why they worked in the nightly builds, they was irregular the same way. i don’t know, but i assume, the content of folder icons gets rescaled to 1:1.

    if you got a little bit time to offer for it…

    http://www.katsbits.com/tutorials/textures/make-better-textures-correct-size-and-power-of-two.php

    #79293
    Avatars2odan
    Participant
    robn wrote:
    I can’t think why the compression would make a difference. The pieces are loaded, decompressed and assembled into a face before being converted to a texture and pushed to the card.

    I also have no idea what all this power-of-two business is about.

    I was clutching at straws offering the compression as a reason, but the other reason mentioned is to do with image dimensions. Certain dimensions cause issues with some cards. Its not ‘power of two’ as many current image dimensions are not to the power of two such as star and planet graphics some of which have odd dimensions.

    But regardless what it is, certain dimensions for some images can cause issues on older cards as was evident with the lanner a few months back.

    Any ideas…?

    #79294
    AvatarPotsmoke66
    Participant

    this idea

    http://www.katsbits.com/tutorials/textures/make-better-textures-correct-size-and-power-of-two.php

    blender team is again cool,

    if i look at nvidia for such they only telling me about their OWN IMPORTANCE to that evolution, eager you could say ๐Ÿ˜†

    #79295
    Avatarrobn
    Participant

    That probably is it. Gui::Image has code that rounds the size up to the nearest power of two before building the texture, and that is the one that is used for all the icons and the old facegen. The new facegen doesn’t do the power of two rounding, it throws a single 295×285 texture into GL. I’ll open an issue to fix this up as soon as Github comes back.

    Somewhat amusingly, the code that I cribbed from in GuiImage.cpp has a comment reading “gl textures must be POT, dim > 64”. If it had defined “POT” I would have got it right. Please everyone, make your comments explain the code ๐Ÿ™‚

    #79296
    AvatarPotsmoke66
    Participant

    have you read the katsbits article?

    if i follow what they mention, rescaling is bad for framerate, simply said.

    POT’smoke man… ๐Ÿ˜†

    i would have guessed anything except power of two.

    not to long ago someone answered me at sci-fi meshes with something like

    Quote:
    Completely CGI unrelated, but can Pioneers engine serve as a RTS as well?

    i was completely overwhelmed CGI? ok, computer graphics and some i, RTS? i googled for results: Radio Tรƒฦ’ร‚ยฉlรƒฦ’ร‚ยฉvision Suisse, nah, can’t be that guy was from the states or, Revue Technique Suisse RTS, Real Time Strategy what was he meant.

    i told him then not to use to much abbreviations, i am not a native english speaking.

    but POT is a hammer man!

    btw, “Revue Technique Suisse” or in german “Technische Rundschau”, my father was subscribed to, a very thick piece of “newsletter”.

    marcel, he was one of the guys in white overcoats, hopping around those giant machines.

    everything i know about physics, math, geometry or electronic i know from him.

    i guess i was aged 9 when he explained me the functions of “and” “or” and “nor” gates.

    discreet technology…

    i wasn’t much older when i build my first flip flop ๐Ÿ˜Ž

    and it’s really a shame i “wrecked” my millenium falcon with all the flashing LED’s on it ๐Ÿ˜ณ

    we was one of the first families in our county* that owned a electronic calculator, using nixie tubes for the display, build by my father of course, we wouldn’t have had the money then to buy one.

    *Glarus is not very big and populated foremost by “cowboys” and textile workers, like i was educated in.

    don’t ask me now why i never made it to electronics or computers then, they simply said i am to bad in math’s…..

    well, imo, someone should beat them everyday with sticks, until their back get’s as bent as mine is, from working as “bob the builder”.

    that was really a good time back then, we used to sit together in his workroom, he was smoking permanently his gauloise bleu and soldering all this magical gimmicks together.

    i know a word for my father and you as well i guess :ugeek:

    #79297
    Avatars2odan
    Participant
    Quote:
    The new facegen doesn’t do the power of two rounding, it throws a single 295×285 texture into GL

    Ah then that would make some sense then….

    Edit// hehe I’m being dumb again ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Ya power of two seems like a reasonable requirement for textures, in fact I have never commited a ‘texture’ to pioneer that was not in those dimensions myself, UI stuff though was not needed to be in those dimensions at the time….

    #79298
    AvatarPotsmoke66
    Participant
    Quote:
    In other words, it’s always best to get image proportions right from the get-go, avoiding over-taxing the system and forcing it to mess up your work.

    referring to katsbits, we would gain in both due to that, power AND quality

    if you like i can do further investigations at gamedev.net

    but i guess that’s not needed no?

    i guess the above linked article explains the reasons well, why rescaling shouldn’t be left neither to the program nor to the GFX card.

    not because it’s not possible to do so, it’s the “weaker” solution rather a simple “keep the POT* rule”. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    well industrial standards, they have their reasons, equal to why still often 8bit depth is used, even when anything else is possible to.

    *power of two

    that excerpt of NVIDIA’s CG tutorial is also very interesting to read, when you leave away the permanent tapping on their own shoulders.

    http://developer.nvidia.com/node/76

    #79299
    MarcelMarcel
    Participant

    Well, I replaced the alpha 10 facegen folder with potsmoke’s ‘POT’ converted folder. Unfortunately, it made no difference. If the compression is different in alpha 10 than 5d61822 (which works fine for me) then that’s probably the reason. I guess in a way it’s good to have a crappy old computer after all! ๐Ÿ˜†

    #79300
    Avatarrobn
    Participant

    Replacing the images will not make the slightest amount of difference. Its nothing to do with the size of the images.

    #79301
    AvatarPotsmoke66
    Participant
    Quote:
    Well, I replaced the alpha 10 facegen folder with potsmoke’s ‘POT’ converted folder

    which surprises me not little ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    because else i can actually see no reason for that…

    compression really makes no difference, as long as only the huffman table is used and no restrictions to the original data have been made, which is not given by .png compression levels, it's lossless, you don't loose one bit of the picture and chksum is the same after un-compressing them like the original (unlike a .jpg which looses many information, but i don't have to tell you).

    anyway to avoid a complications the pics in the folder i send you was compression level 0, even if there is no difference, except loading speed.

    and packet size of a zip is the same, you can compress lossless only once, there is no further or only very little you get out of that.

    for a data stream that's a bit different, because there you have to set frames for the huffman coding, you like to listen or watch in real time, for a static data not.

    can you describe the appearance a little further (attach a screenshot)? and i forgot actually what system (your computer) you use, will be also of importance

    perhaps i can find a reason for that, because it seems no one else has this problem.

    [hr][/hr]

    for the devs, what would be if you really would pass all texture data un-scaled to the process? i mean all textures even icons would have to follow the POT, imo that’s only professional.

    problems with some gfx cards is not the only reason, read the dammit katsbits stuff, textures get bad of scaling from irregular to regular and has nothing to do with blender or not, only because that this is a article of blender community, it’s important for ALL computergames. further if the “artist” scales his pictures he has appearance in his hands and didn’t have to leave that up to a softs. i know i am only gernot and sometimes i feel like “ahh not that odd gernot again…”

    usually i go and investigate, check a lot of articles where i find information to a certain problem i have. one could never know everything, but one can ask and one can know where to ask (old rule of my chemistry teacher).

    if i have some facts, i can ask some “wise guys” and I have EARS to listen… i didn’t think i am super, in nothing i do (even when i am perhaps, i can’t see that), sometimes this hinders me, sometimes this is only good. ๐Ÿ˜€

    i am not to proud to ask a stupid question…, might be because one has first to LOOSE EVERYTHING that he has loved.

    there is not much left that i am proud of, even not my paintings, that’s somehow stupid or bad, but no way to get back.

    #79302
    MarcelMarcel
    Participant

    Go it. Facegen has to be modified to output a power of two texture so even the oldest ATI cards can work with it. Thanks for everybody’s interest in this.

    And Gernot, I would have loved to hang out with you and your dad back then. He was an :ugeek: but I’m not up to that standard. Maybe a bit of a :geek: , but if anybody around here is an :ugeek: , it’s you. ๐Ÿ˜Ž

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