Home Forums Space and SciFi MMO and Multi-Player Only Discussion Outspace Game Useful weapons ideas for Ship2Ship fight / dogfight

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    • #60668
      martinExospace
      Participant

      Dear community,

       

      please help us decide the way of tactical behavior in the conflict of two ships.

      We are willing to be more realistic as possible, but here we facing the wall.

       

      Lets make an explanation:

       

      We have classical space simulation conflict. In space, two or more enemy ships meet on their way, battle starts.

       

      Everybody knows classical fight like ships are moving slowly shooting on each other projectiles, lasers, rockets, torpedoes etc…

      There starting to be funny.

       

      We can not stop, we will exactly miss each other by unimaginable speed. We wont see each other.

      When ship in space is moving, takes a lot of energy to stop, or slow (exactly the same as was used on acceleration). That means, the really big ships will not stop so quick. Because we travel about 10 000 – 150000 Km/Hour (many times faster than bullet, with this speed is traveling ISS, or many satellites now). It is many times faster than a bullet!

       

      We cant shoot.

      The same speed and huge distances, is  why projectile weapons in space aren’t so clever. When 2 ships moving towards, their speed to each other is for example 100000 Km/Hour. In this speed, I can throw a small stone on enemy ship. Impact of the fist sized stone in this speed will have similar effect like small nuclear weapon! I don’t need to shoot something. Just throw snack from my moving ship in the right direction.

      Shooting will move our ship back, in opposite direction of the shot. It is impossible to shoot from automatic weapons, our ship will start moving and rotating without control with each shot.

       

      Real possible weapons will be a some kind of microwaves, electromagnetic, lasers, fight drones and missiles.

      Do you have any idea on another kind of weapons, or how will the fight look like more funny?

       

      If there will be some real space fight in the future, who will win. Actually we think, wins the one who first hit the enemy. 

       

      We ask our obelisk, but no answer …

      [attachment=2823:obelisk.png]

      Fanatical - Official PC Game Keys

    • #104725
      sscadminsscadmin
      Administrator

      Must of missed this post. And you bring up an interesting question and I am sure there would be stabilizing measures in place to keep a ship on track/heading while engaged in a fight without weapons messing it up. But if that sub-system was damaged now a ship could be at a disadvantage during the fight because maybe some weapons don’t have 360 degree of movement. Now on to the heavy weapons or damage, this is touchy because a stone against todays technology would probably cause a lot of damage but you would have to think that we have solved that issue because if not small items would be taking down billions of credits worth of hardware 🙂 For instance in BSG you watch the Galactica just take 2-3 nukes and still be in the fight. These ships are huge with a lot of hull armor (and probably strong shields) and a fight could last a long time if fighters aren’t trying to take out crucial subsystems.

      But you do bring up a good point about projectile ammo, if the ships are going faster than the projectile you should miss depending on the distance the round will have to travel. But you would think the targeting programs would adjust and it would lead the target to have rounds land true. So maybe you are just overthinking the technology that should be on these ships.

    • #104726
      martinExospace
      Participant

      Hi DarkOne/Ray 🙂

       

      Projectile weapons:

      Yes it is possible to calculate right power and trajectory of projectile, but it is also about ship speed during fight and distances.

      Like today’s jet fighters, shooting earlier than they can see each other. In the space will be this much more dramatic.

       

      Lets take example:

      My target / cargo ship is flying some unbelievable speed for us today (but in a 100 years in future, where is our game situated, should be possible)  we say 300,000 km/h (voyager 1 has about 64,000 km/h and be sure we cant get fastest now in real world) with this sped will take trip to Saturn tens of years. But we can say yes, our ship is flying about 100,000 km/h and it is a slow ship / big cargo ship about 2km long.

       

      You have a fast fighter about 500 meters long. I’m faster and i catch a cargo ship and start shooting.

       

      We normally shoot at each other in flight. Because we’re going the same speed. According to Newton’s law will speed projectile increased by our speed. As a result, it will be as if we stood side by side and did not move . 

      We focus target , say, in distance 10,000 km .

       

      The speed of flight of the projectile such as normal bullets is about 1,000 km / hour. This means that to the target bullet flew 10 hours! It is more than likely that at this time the ship has taken defensive maneuvers . Even the computer is the fastest and most accurate weapon would be useless to us .

       

       

      In this time man kind cant create material, that will survive biggest projectile than a human fist in higher speed than 40,000 km/h. Strongest hull armor means increasing of weight, that means increasing the trust of engines, that means more fuel and biggest engines, that means more weight … and so forth.

      That is the reason why will be not possible to use hull armor. We need to invent something like electromagnetic field, or force field to issue shields (energy source for the shield will be lighter than armor).

      Some examples from game, this is the way how player builds ship (like train putting each component on the axis truss).

      This is very early version, without textures, only conception for thought experiment:
      facebook.png

      IS2.png

      IS1.png

    • #104727
      icsDrafe
      Participant

      We cant shoot.”

      Yep, check out the on-board gun section 🙂

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salyut_3

       

      “the ship has taken defensive maneuvers”

      I don’t know about the propulsion systems in 100years, but evasion takes up a large amount of fuel for the big ship, and only a fraction of that for the small missiles launched by the adversary. While chemical rockets are not fuel efficient, it looks like that they have superior thrust over their alternatives so they will be used here, and a consecutive swarm of missiles can force the target to use up all of it’s rocket fuel. Counter missiles may be effective against that tactic, in a disrupt and deflect way. Lasers can play a role too, however sufficient radiation power over large distances is problematic so they might be limited to the role of a just before impact point deffens (see gaussian beam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_beam). They will also eat up the ship’s limited supply of power, and the same goes for “long range” jammers (out of the sun effect is a great jammer by the way 🙂 ).

       

      A single unguided projectile can be evaded or deflected, but a cloud of those can be problematic. Let’s combine it into a 2 staged cluster missile with smart/drone warheads connected by light but strong strings so they can spread out and move against each other without the use of a thruster. Or let’s have a fast spinning cluster missile, that opens up on it’s path to create a large disc of those deadly particles of hull breaking kinetic energy (this should be banned by the anti space trash treaty 🙂 ).

      We might bringing up the nukes too, a shaped charge neutron bomb is the way to go  🙂

      I think the more realistic way is some kind of a maintenance drone used as an opportunistic missile weapon.

       

      If we are in the order of 10000km and ETA is several hours, gravity and orbits (frame forces) will play big role. A fight between ships on different orbits will be a very interesting and new phenomena in the spacesim gender. Also note that interplanetary space is huge, getting near each other is challenging there, gravity and celestial movements add up too, think about the so called launch windows.

       

      I’m looking forward for the experience, cheers!

    • #104728
      martinExospace
      Participant

      Hi icsDrafe.

      After a lot of consultations with enthusiastic professionals, we are building all game elements on this rules:

      In the timeframe about several hours it is not possible dramatically change trajectory of standard space ships, that means some defensive maneuvers will be not possible (space propulsion is strong enaught now, but a crew have limited ability to survive G force).

      But a projectile weapons will not be effective, projectiles are to slow, in hours ship need only minimal change of trajectory nor if any, it is possible to  “strafe” and all projectiles will miss the ship. For effective hit of ship distant about 1000 km and more, you need speed of projectile about 100,000 km/sec and to have some mass for destruction power.

      That gun is not exist for now and physical limits of power and materials make that gun not possible to construct.

      It will be much more effective to send small intelligent drones to move closer to enemy with some kind of STEALTH technology making impossible to locate that drone. this drone can contain explosives or can even wait in the trajectory of enemy ship for collision. Will e much more destructive than any earth used projectile only by his mass.

       

      There is one physics fact. Drone can change speed and trajectory very effectively. But always need to be similar with attacked ship.

       

      That opens way to use known weapons.

      Lasers, will be very useful, but to defence / eliminate that drones on short distances.

      It can be used projectile weapons too (the same tactics as using navy ships on rockets now) because there is calculating only speed of drone vs speed of gun. 

      It is also possible to shot a projectiles and using laser to speed them  up and “driving” it on longer distance. Speed velocity can be much more faster than standard projectile accelerated only by explosion on start, and did not affect on ship trajectory. (only needs to contain any material which will be burned by laser, causing a propulsion)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAdj6vpYppA (it is air in this example)

      Actually we are using fight drones (in kamikaze style with explosives) to hit or to set minefield in area of enemy ship trajectory.

      Torpedoes, the very fast drone navigated to enemy ship directly.

      To defence:

      we using a very fast projectile guns and lasers.

      considering to magnetic railgun, but there will be the same problem as standard guns or cannons (so slow projectiles) navy actually testing railguns for the ships and projectile vector speed is about 7000m/s which is so slow and the gun is wery wry massive device with consumption of large energy amount.

       

       

       

    • #104729
      McAule
      Participant

      What about guided rockets?

    • #104730
      martinExospace
      Participant

      Yes, guided rockets for this distance are very easy to locate and easy to destroy or take under control. But basically guided rockets are drones.

    • #104731
      McAule
      Participant

      Yes, guided rockets for this distance are very easy to locate and easy to destroy or take under control. But basically guided rockets are drones.

       But if you make an unguided missile (rocket, torpedo), fired by making trajectory calculations into an enemy it can carry only fuel for its engine, explosive material and no cpu for guiding. So it would be difficult to take control of it and if after it’s acceleration it cut off it’s engine then with no heat signature it would be difficult to intercept and destroy as it would look like a debris or small asteroid. But, of course, it could be recognised by materials its made off through scanner and destroyed…

       

      P.s.

      Also Gauss cannons (coilguns, railguns) comes to mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun

      Plasma weapons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_weapon

      Ion weapons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_cannon

      Particle-beam weapons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle-beam_weapon

    • #104732
      martinExospace
      Participant

      It would be recognised for the engine working, with heat signature. This technology was invented in a cold war. 

      distances are really big, rocket is too big. Rocket must be corrected during flight, target is moving. Trajectory time is about hours to impact for target. 

      Debris or small asteroids in fact are not in open space. Ships haven’t capacity to surf between debrises.

      Scanner for material have not been invented as i know. Only way is to burn that object and make a spectrometry.

      gauss rifle = yes, this is only projectile weapon we have in the game

      plasma weapons = pure sci-fi, plasma is state of matter, not a material. It must be extremely hot, which is not possible in space, where is a big entropy. 

      ion weapons = i don’t know if is it factically possible, maybe someone help?

      Particle-beam weapons = yes they are exactly used, for example navy laser gun. Its perfect device to eliminate enemy rockets.

    • #104733
      martinExospace
      Participant

      Best weapon will be (my opinion) drone equipped with laser, projectile gun and explosive.

      In a first, is highly maneuverable, it can change trajectory much easier as a entire ship. It is possible to loose it. It can defend yourself by anti rocket laser and it can use projectile gun like cannon on a short distance. At last it can work like a probe / mine / or destructive guided device.

      When gets optimal speed and direction, enemy cannot defend against it If is destroyed, debris still moving in the same direction and speed. Ship has only chance to detect it first, destroy it, and move away from trajectory. That needs to be done in a short time, before the ship is possible to move out from trajectory.

       

      BTW mirror is a good defence against a laser beam.

    • #104734
      McAule
      Participant

      But what about drone weight? You’ll have to carry quite a number of them, and they would weight down ships, increasing fuel consumptions. Even if you make then in space stations-factories, carrying them is a bulky task, and you’d need a bulky ship for that, unless they’re smaller or like nano-bots swarm.

    • #104735
      CaptainKalCaptainKal
      Participant

      I think that, the real problem of fighting at such long distances, is target acquisition and a finding a targeting solution.

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