i guess, after reading the changes (i can't run pioneer on this macbook), that is already solved, sorry.

no not sorry, i'm happy that it will work now, even if i can't try.

Yes, I still have the PM, but the link (p66.live.com) is dead 🙁

sorry i wasn't aware, i must have deleted it, as i can't find that myself in the storage.

well, that's useless, i MUST fix my computer very soon, else i'm getting crazy 😈

Hi Gernot! Welcome back! I missed you! I'm looking forward to seeing what you've been working on. 😀

As for that pimped out big_crappy, I have a couple of vague ideas for it. The first is an iris door on each end of the entrance tunnel, and the second is to change the final docking position to correspond with the coriolis effect. The number of docking bays would be increased to six, and you would enter the bay, stop rotation until you lined up with your allotted bay, then settle down into it, seeing the other bays at sixty degree angles around you.

I also wanted to mention that I made spacestations.lua self referencing. I put all the textures I lifted from you into a new folder, data\models\stations\textures. This is just in my version, it's not in the game, but may be in the future. I'm getting the two mushroom stations into shape for alpha 15. I'm thinking of trying to improve the hoop and other ground stations after that. I want to integrate whatever I do with your big_crappy! 😆

Sounds cool 🙂 I hope you can get your computer sorted soon..

i made a iris for the bloodrunner bridge 😆

not easy, how you planned to it? scripted?

anyway it will work, but not perfectly if you use simple triangles, it will need some more experience.

you can rotate a triangle for a iris blend if you set the axis on either left or rightside of the shorter side of a equal shanked triangle, if it's a scripted geometry it's simply start (v(0,0,0)) of the triangle (depends on which side it should move, left for a clockwise)

.

the triangle should be reasonable a section of a circle in the desired size of the "door" (or whatever).

now i tested the movement in blender before i started the model, and it showed that without correctional values in the rotational movement it will leave a little gap from on roundabout half of the way, when it opens.

but it's rather small and deniable, imo.

a solution could be if the section is a little oversized, but the rotational axis is kept on the proper size, each would overlap the previous a bit then.

the texture idea is good, i allways thought once textures could be gathered together.

it might not help for performance, but it helps for shure to keep it a bit smaller.

it's cool imo, iv'e made a new seamless shiphull texture, meanwhile i used it for many different things because it's so multipurposal. a few more of such and many models won't need own texture sets.

the texture i started for the "bloodrunner", because it's a original sketchup model and after converting of the geometry to collada, so i can read the model, they have usually a immense poly count, so i thought of something i can use in the way like i project textures on a scripted geometry, no unfolding, only one texture (almost), simple "project from view" uv.

it really helps, imo (if i have a projection from view uv, the .obj file has also only one uv for all faces of the mesh).

i'm not shure, but i guess sketchup models are like our scripted geometry, that's why they have this immense polycount.

i had this idea after looking at the "bloodrunner" (dr. zarkovs ship), the tail looks like you would define a flat and a bezier quad after a bezier curve you have drawn as border of the shape.

if i'm right, then there should be a better way to convert sketchup for pioneer, i preassume it uses only different commands for the same stuff (draw a shape...).

really something that's still comes to my mind from time to time, a 3d modeling program for pioneer, using the advantages and limitations of scripted models (perhaps with the possibility to create scripts for .obj models, of course i could think, "hm your own fault if you can't handle that little text editing," but i understand it's pepperland for many).

also i'm still convinced that it would be possible for a interested phyton scripter to create a blender script that exports our lua format models, finished with all the settings for thrusters and specs of the ship.

that could be wavefront .obj still, only you don't have to mess around with especially the expressions for animations. because i'm pretty shure cad internally get the animations handled like we do, only that the program does all calculations for you, usually when you export a model to a animated model only the set keys of the animation will be exported.

but i guess it should be also possible to read out the rotation and translate data as they are.

Yeah, It would make things nicer. I've done similar things with 3ds max in the past. No experience in Blender scripting though.

I put it on the tracker, add comments if you have any: https://github.com/pioneerspacesim/pioneer/issues/655

first i did was to eliminate the second lathe for the from front / from side projection by splitting it up to

part models so i can project each side together and have only one model.

i was noticing it while i was wondering why the text disappears when i'm close?

ok, 1m added to cover the other mesh, but forgot to lift the text over the new mesh.

after that i thought, why not "cleanup" the whole model?

hm, you like to change the docking positions, well then my additional buildings won't fit.

i only sticked 4 of my "coil buildings" into the hull (with a little modification of the building), now the lower parts sticks inside and it looks a bit like a docking pole/control tower.

the wheel section i doubled and added some kind of a windows texture, not bad now, at least no longer "crappy" 😉 (i never felt).

My vague ideas are just a pipe dream at this point. 😉 I just thought I'd toss them out there for discussion. Yes, I was thinking lua scripted iris doors. I look forward to seeing what you have done, because it's sure to be an order of magnitude better than anything I'd be able to do. Although the stuff I did to it makes it live up to its name. I think I got the "crappy" part right! 😆

disclaimer:

following models and sub-models are in alpha11 state,

i guess they will need some fixes to run them on a current version.

first

the needed submodels with the renewed pilot model

a really important update for the pilots, all following ships, stations & buildings will need some of the contained sub-models.

i hope the final pilot model works, because i added today the robot-pilot but had no chance to test it.

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/sub_models.zip

2nd

the NEW ships, like noted before they need the new pilots (sorry, i hope they will last a little), but need also a fixup for alpha14/15 i guess.

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/bloodrunner.zip

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/hullcutter.zip

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/planet_express.zip

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/shift.zip

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/viper_ch.zip

3rd

ship models that have changed completely or partwisely, mostly use of new sub-models (script only then) some texture and/or models updates (alpha11 state

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/ships%20-%20changed%20models.zip

4th

unofficial ships (alpha11 state)

two ships here the "suprosa" from SW-XWA and the "Cobra MKIII" from FFED3D, which i would have to find the owner first for.

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/suprosa.zip

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/cobra_ffe3d.zip

5th

the new groundstation 1-4 docking ports, still a wip i was interrupted by the broken gfx card.

it includes a very large tube as somekind of city monorail, it has no collision mesh (the monorail) so it didn't hinders the city from getting build, therefore it will sometimes cross other buildings, use it by choice.

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/stations.zip

6th

some new buildings and the updated rest of buildings (removed collision mesh for basements = buildings stand closer)

new buildings

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/bld_ind_p66.zip

updated buildings

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/buildings_greyoxide.zip

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/buildings_p66.zip

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/city3k.zip

7th

the hostile planets groundstation wip

http://pioneer-universum.web.officelive.com/Documents/spaceport_hostile_wip.zip

[/hr]

i've made also more of these little SEUCK games you can visit this at

http://www.glbasic.com/forum/index.php?topic=6523.msg57963#msg57963

and i can't move my right hand proper, that's crazy...

😯 WOW Gernot, you have been busy! 😀 Love that "Flash Gordon" type city and great new ships too 😎 A question though, what happened to that 1960s German TV series UFO you did, I think you called it the Orion?

As for the FFE3D Cobra, did you ask on the Russian boards? The author should be around there someplace.

Anyways, great work all round Gernot 😉

the orion is complete in the "changed models" download, some i left complete, because i remembered they are not in github.

carefully install the pilot and the scanner from sub-models (or better all of them), then i would say coolhands viper, but it needs fixes perhaps to the ship-specs, or does run ships with alpha11 specs on alpha15? (i still can't run pioneer myself, needs a litle time).

the cobra3 is from sparks, i added a note to the download.

and removed a ugly note from bloodrunner 😳

potsmoke66 wrote:

Mind. Blown.

if you like to test the models without messing around with the scripts i suggest to download a alpha11 pioneer and add the models & submodels (or vice versa copy alpha11 without models and submodels over btb10) from "bob the builders builds" after that copy all new files (all) over the existing, i guess that could work.

while i'm staying busy getting my gfx card running proper.

can someone tell me in short words what has changed to models since 11?

yes, i can sort that out myself...

do not use os.clock

only single version of textures - no more small, medium, large or whatever

do not use load_obj in dynamic

put missiles to >=lod3,thrusters >=lod2, nobody cares about pilots

no broken animations

no broken bounding radius

no dead wrong lod_pixels

Gernot, ignore this one:

I care 🙂

yeah, sounds like durandal likes to explain modeling for pioneer to me 😆

i don't mind

there will be a lot "wrong" to this conditions, but well...

i guess i'm permitted to do so

apart from that based to my own experiences, texture use (if,how, projection is better then per-face) is much more important then a use of all LODs (with exception of a must for a untextured low poly collision mesh, the fact that the lowest lod has to be untextured worthes more then 100000 polys, additionally remove any uv, reset uv for a collision mesh so all faces use the same uv values, or use a projection from only one side for the whole mesh)

of course any dynamic transformed .obj is a framerate killer. main reason for the updated pilots, even a dynamic selection of a texture can lower the framerate much.

i guess that will be the first to fixup for alpha15, so you can see what difference it makes (quite some, ie. to the courier).

the "don't transform .obj dynamic" can be broken if really needed for certain cases, it won't harm.

but in general,

- it's evil for a landing gear

- bad choice for texture variations on your model

- usually a later dynamic used but static sub-model is the far better choice.

you can sometimes use

texture dynamic on a scripted geometry (or in limited range on .obj), that gives you some special fx.

check the cobra3d and coolhands viper for this, they have a new sort of "engine glow" and broken engine anim (viper_heavy_wear).

i like pilots to...

and cockpits, and bridges, and little things you nearly can't see (like a scrolling disclaimer on a screen) 😀

hey that has tradition...

ever seen a

"CAUTION

protective cloth must be worn at all time, radioactivity persists even when engines cooled down."

in frontier, without hacking the bounding radius of the ship, or watching your (ex) own cobra mk3 from the escape capsule?

btw, you CAN read it in pioneer...

"the difference between a good movie and a "classic" is in the things you don't see." but i didn't ment left up to imagination.

[/hr]

no, i ment the changed get_arg(Whatever), but like i said i can sort that out myself.

i guess it will take quite some time until i'm able to run pioneer again, though either i have to update the models slowly (one by one and i would have to wait for results) or someone is patiently enough to help.

- scrolling disclaimer/credits on three screens (one is like three they use all the same uv projection)

- a mini planetarium

- scanner beam on scanner display

- i would have liked a analog displayed thrust... (still have a free gauge display)

things more offense to see 😀

- somekind of a "jacobs ladder"

- clocks displaying game time and your local time (date, first i was displaying the local date instead of the credits/disclaimer).

i know, i was getting a little far with the details for this bridge, one visitor asked (that's true) "can i walk around in this bridge?"

[/hr]

and oh, i still will use os.clock() or os.date() if i feel it fits good for some use (and if i'm not wrong, i can always use it from lua).

i used it (note i was offline since alpha11) before mainly to evade a gametime issue (counting only seconds from april on).

further i still like a "steady" rotating scanner better then one that looks (at accel. time) like it would like to lift off in the next moment (sorry)

some "craaaazy" animations, like the running lights on the (revisited) big_crappy, using vlerp and a sine curve, need a 100% true clock, else that **** don't works.

[/hr]

it is to think about to leave the scanner and other animated sub-models un animated.

would mean less comfort, but more flexibility for the modeler who likes to use them.

even if a "guideline" would be good, though all use it the same way.

i guess that needs a democratic voting.

but that's not the only thing i'm not conform to the conventions, as far as such exist at all.

i also still have a problem with that 50/50 hull/capacity settings, why don't we use it as they was ment?

i'm aware that a empty ship will have a extreme accel. with the specs how i use them, but a ships never empty and due to the large weight jump from class 4 to 5 especially large ships havn't as much space left as expected (this using a relation in between 1/3 and 1/2), imo 1/3 (fighters) up to 1/2 (transporters) is ok.

some crazy small fighters haven't left one tonne extra after fueling, why more hullmass?

still they should have reasonably a better range (a far better), else there is no need to buy them, why more hullmass?.

some "oldtimers" might have a relation 1/1 or even worse, that's ok.

sometimes we like to derivate from frontier, other times the hyperdrive from a ip shuttle get's removed, why?

no hyperdrive for the shuttle, but the smaller talon or my adc-40 (the ship is sized almost like the stow master fighter i found out) can have one?

i've noticed you can trade inter-system now, still you could start with a ip_shuttle (and 100 creds) somewhere, will cost some time until you can afford a hyperdrive at all.

not that it's a big problem for me, i'm only guessing.

btw, did you ever blew off 100tons of hull with a 1 or a 2MW pulse laser, have patience... a lot of patience.

(i know missiles work better).

yes, you are much weaker with less hull, but the enemies to.

and yes, i really like pilots and such things they personalize your ship in some way

i still use(d) the "body_shop" script, a cool thing is that, to get a ship with different reg. no (through that different pilots, flight-group, decals)

actually i added a robot pilot (i know has far to much polys now the robot, must be reworked but it's a cool thing and has no textures so it can have some more polys),

what about a alien?

perhaps, but only perhaps i could remove one or two variations.

further i could split the helmets from the pilot, like i actually splitted the chair from it, that would need less variations then, you would have to call then the helmet model if needed.

i also thought about some different method to predefine the helmet model or if one is worn at all, but then you won't have no control over that and that's not as good.

the local lightened pilot models i like to keep, because else it looks strange when a global lightened pilot sits in a (perhaps) local lightened bridge.

Don't worry your ugly models are not going to be in my branch.

Not mentioning how ugly they look and how broken animations they have.

Or stupid use of os.clock or bilboard stuff when pos lights sub models are available or rotating galactic map in viper x.

Or stupid looking smiling pilot face in ship with thousands of small parts in unindented code.

You already showed your skills and I will just move on.

I will stop now, it is pointless anyway to have proper discussion with your ego trip.

thanks, for compliments 😕

do i harmed you in some sort...

ugly, ok that's flavour, fortunately

stupid use of os.clock, hm well you would have liked no animations after january (game time), since one year?

Or stupid looking smiling pilot face in ship with thousands of small parts in unindented code, which one would be that? unindented, yeah cool, i accidentially hit a few keys and "swoosh" there was a model born...

yes, i really must have been on a ego trip sharing all my experiences even with guys like you (someone told me the complete egoist shares only because of egoism, could be).

why haven't i heard of such a eagle like you are before?

ugly is by choice but "how broken animations they have" can you help me which one, so i could possibly fix it if it's in the range of my limited capabilities.

and really i will see what's behind yours, but don't expect negative critics, such is reserved for friends.

i didn't moved here to argue or fight really not, and if something is bad for the community then this, this will split it and the result will be chaos.

---

hey what's about a skill contest in lua modeling, we will have both the same task

a rigged animation with 3 bones in a scripted model (.obj or scripted geometry)

do you dare?

common, let's get friends instead of competitors, we all will have more profit then.

i can be a chaotic guy, yes, sometimes i'm really bad, but i have two eyes and two ears and most of all a heart...

and please don't get jealous, only because some of us had the chance to ski through maiden snow,

or because i get welcomed back so nice, people here know me, they know my ups and downs very well i guess.

some incorrigible ones really seem to like my models...

smile !

you just liked to attack me a bit, am i right?

might better haven't answered, but i have.

usually i'm kind but while looking what YOU might have done so far i've seen many comments of you like this

usually i wouldn't answer it's lost time, but it's getting on my nerves

first i can't remember that i used zbias for a model (if you mean a modewl and not a .obj), i guess i was the one who pointed out very very early that such won't work

yes, it's very low poly "dumb" model, done in hurry from a older model i made once

and stupid texture on top of texture allows to have a colorvariable material but you can spare certain parts out from it, or perhaps blend the colorvariable material with a slight alpha to get more depth to the colorvriable material.

after all it seem's to me you are just a freeloader

to read it sounds like you invented lua modeling,

but if one knows recons, it's only bla, bla, sorry

so please, if you like vlastans models better then mine, then right on youre free to comment mine as ugly, even if i think that's not quite fair and i never would say "ugly" to someone elses work, whatever it might be.

perhaps i don't like or i don't like the style of

oh, you forgot? such are the rules in a forum, never to attack personally

give constructive critics please

if one does and i'm shure i did such to, you're also free to rebuke him/her

i don't mind, like i said i have some friends here who really like my models, some might dislike it.

it's easy when one can't answer (off line).

i would have liked to shut my mouth, really

but who do you guess introduced the sub-models folder (as a prev. loaded one) and who do you guess wrote the first basic models for it (incl. my from me so unkind disregarded poslights i.e.).

and yes, i'm in general stupid

and i make stupid space ships on a stupid free software

perhaps i'm even gay, who knows (which shouldn't influence your choice).

one thing is a fact, i'm still a beginner

and have still a lot to learn.

fortunately vlastan "don't likes my style" (i preassume, i don't know), else we would have the same models and that would be boring, but i guess we respect each others work (at least i do).

to keep you better informed, so you won't tell wrong, thee (existing) cobra mk3 was put in early pioneer as example model, for interested (let's say beginners) who liked to know how to bind .obj to pioneer, i just added some slight changes to her.

the mk1 is another one of my ugly ships and in fact it's a nothing based also on a older model, just to have a cobra mk1 that was all, i made some experiments with her, that is, how skin colors work with random material, how to fix up a programmable default landing gear.

but of course, you wouldn't have needed any of such experiments, you know it all out of the box!

please be humble and keep the rules, so i will do to.

let's get real,

what exactly was the depth problem with the lynx?

by looking at the script i can't see much wrong, especially, zbias used for a model???

if you really think to use zbias for a wavefront object isn't needed, then your'e wrong this is possible and needed like it's needed for a scripted geometry to "lift" a surface proper over another.

you can (this is experience, not theory) use zbias without any vectors for a .obj (only), it doesn't need v(position) and doesn't need v(normal), why is not to clear to me, but it works and has always worked proper for me (maybe because normals are determined by the mesh?).

looking at the script from this pov i only could remove some entries and use a zbias(1,v(0,0,0),v(0,0,0)) for all overlayed meshes together, that works. at least on my nvidia i often asked if others have problems and some have, it seems it didn't appears on all gfx cards the same.

this allows to use a mesh double and still it stays on top when zbias is set proper.

i know i'm not perfect and there might be some leaks in my models, i will fix such if possible and if i know what exactly the problem is.

sometimes the code looks "unintended" like you described it, but if you would take a closer look and would have more experience, you would recon that most things have a reason why i did it in a specific way or why i used/created a model/geometry at a specific place.

scripting models needs a lot of experience, there are guidelines to it (some have marked by me), but they are as dynamic as a scripted geometry.

btw, if you remove zbias from the lynx, i'm pretty sure no "chrome" parts are visible on top of the colorvariable set mesh

and the flickering of the window shows exactly the missing of a zbias.

[/hr]

something else,

still i'm not convinced that a texture atlas is (always) better.

and i don't quite understand "modern gfx cards and drivers", since i'm pretty sure that nothing has changed to the guidelines of cg since early 90's (referring to nvidias guidelines/introduction to it).

what was important then is still important now, only that everything is much faster, you got more power to handle 3d and it has get more "comfortable" (while the "comfort" solution isn't always the best), in simple words.

i guess it depends more on how you use the meshes, it's unlogical to me to texture e.g. a pair of wheels which i have to create the model in advance for, from a large map.

but i guess it makes sense when the meshes got used together (i.e. lod).

and i think i'm not wrong if i say this way can be used for all meshes of a model, means group things which you use together, makes sense.

likewise, i group a scripted geometry mainly by texture and uv use, any else is secondary to that (except hierarchy, this is most important and so a texture doesn't have to be on one map imo, if the hierarchy splits the geometry already, e.g. it makes no sense to put the texture for the cockpit on the "main map", you will have to create/load the geometry at a different point in the hierarchy anyway and reasonably it's gettin used only for higher LODs).

if i think further about that and take a look at how uv is stored in a .obj (or any else format), it's as soon as a mesh is unwrapped, a per face texturing. of course grouping still makes sense (use atlas). but on the other hand i'm not sure if it really makes a big difference.

but one thing i know, projection uv values, like for scripted geometry, is useful also for a wavefront .obj to. it limits the possibilities but lowers processing time. perhaps simply because you have only one value for a whole mesh and no per face texturing.

the bloodrunner was following that idea (before i created the bridge) and had without the bridge a quite good performance.

while stupid me has disrespected all lod's except lod1 for the collision mesh and even this is rather high poly.

but like i said, it's not as important as to keep away any texture from lod1.

but once i will rework that ship and it's planned to use a scripted geometry for it wherever it's possible, the shape of the ship is predestinated for it.

but i await explanations, a good argument can REALLY change my thinking.

noticed some needed fixes 1st.

i changed the squadsign sub-model to this

still there is at least one model using a call for a squad_color model to get the material only, since quite awhile such isn't no longer possible, therefore there is since also quite awhile the replacing function squad_color() (i guess it's not the only one missing this, i fixed a couple of them after it had changed).

now one might ask what it's good for at all, a short explanation, it's used to get some sort of flight-group colors which you can use independent from the "squad-sign" (a simple symbol), this allows the modeler to create own specific symbols or using the material setting for things like helmet/dress color or simply some colored stripes on the ship in the flight-group color. that has been used by me always in the same manner and so a squad-sign will have the same color as the "stripes" and the helmet, the dress color will vary it's own.

ok, the first i noticed now was sparks ASP explorer,

if the above sub-model script is used (or one containing that function already), then the ASP can loook like this

and will have back it's squad color layer/parts.

it was after all only the color for the label, which could be set to white by choice, but i like the coloured version.

but like i said, there will be more of them still using the "squad_color" model instead of the function.

question,

get_time('SECONDS') is what get_arg(1) was before, right?

do i have still a continous clock? as a replacement for my absolutely stupid use of os.clock()?

[/hr]

another question,

i miss models_functions, has it been removed/replaced? if it's removed no wonder my **** no longer works.

to the devs, i would like to have something else, perhaps a seed, maybe the same as used for the colorvariable material.

or three or four random numbers for the purpose i used the selector function.

really i can't go on if i don't know what's happened with it!

just tell me if this still works or i have to find another solution.

[/hr]

ok, i found that, it has moved to models, why?

what if a submodel calls the function? it won't work (there are several of them).

it was put to a separate folder once by tomm to be loaded in front of any models that could use it possibly.

still i would accept a better solution rather the derivation of a number from the label.

(i put this one on the issue tracker)