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shenle
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I got to reading the chocolate-flavored galaxy and other threads, and many thoughts come to my head. And since they're not exactly on topic in the other threads, I'm starting this one.

It has been brought before, but... do we keep the same factions from FE2/FFE, perhaps with some minor changes? Or do we reinvent a completely new system of factions from scratch?

Is the general idea to end up with a completely open-ended game like FE2, or will it become an open-ended game with a plot line running through (part of) it like FFE? Or will it be something different, like an open-ended game with a number of plots running through it sequentially, perhaps not as extensive as the Thargoid/mycoid plot from FFE but more of them?

Each such mini-plot could be far more interesting than the plain "go there and deliver this package" or "go kill this guy" or "go bomb this place" style missions from FE2. Here's an example of what it could be like:

"COURAGEOUS COMMANDER sought for moderately dangerous mission. Details upon application"

"Hello, we have checked your credentials and we think you may be the right man for this assignment. We are an association of ... interested parties and we have been on the receiving end of unfair competition/industrial espionnage from a third parties association. We have had enough and are willing to send a message to the third parties. We have learned that they will be having a meeting in system X on planet Y at a place called Z on W date/time. We would like you to blow the place up, and deal with any welcoming committee appropriately. Afterwards, could you please search through the rubble and see if you can find any interesting objects to bring back?"

'We have analyzed the data cube you brought back, and it looks like an important enemy leader was missing the meeting. We would like you to track him down and dispose of. We have heard that he was last seen in system X"

(system X's bulletin board contains some clues as to the location of the missing person, such as someone wanting a package/message sent to him in another location, or the person itself looking for transport etc - in any case, locate and destroy)

"thank you for helping us with our predicament. Here is your pay. We will keep you in mind for any future clean-up jobs"

And of course there will be a follow-up mission at some time from this faction - and any missions that you try taking from the opposite faction are met with resistance, or you may even find yourself at the receiving end of an assasination contract taken by the "enemy" 😎

Of course all this is theoretical at this point. I guess Tom should weigh in the most on these matters, after all Pioneer is his brainchild.


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Subzeroplainzero
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I like the idea of all new factions, as long as they make sense and aren't too fantastical. I always used to ignore the main quests though, but then I always do in sandbox games 😛 I'm currently playing daggerfall, and whenever one of the scripted missions crops up, I vomit a little in my mouth.


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shenle
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Just to be clear, I am talking of several different categories of factions here. Such as: big political factions (equivalent to the Alliance/Empire and perhaps one or two more), as well as smaller factions - economic, religious etc which may or may not respect the political boundaries. each of them with its own reputation system.

To get an idea of a complex reputation system, take a look at the other open source space sim that I am following the development of, Vega Strike http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net


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shenle
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I can come up with interesting mission scenarios. Here's another sample:

"FAST SHIP required for important delivery"

"Thanks for responding to our request. I see that you have worked with us in the past and you are trustworthy. We offer 50000 credits for the urgent delivery of this datacube to system X"

"Why so much money?"

"We are a conglomerate of agricultural corporations. Our industrial espionage division has recovered the genetic data of a parasite that our competitors plan to unleash on the planets under our control to destroy our crops. So that they can take control over those systems and grow their crops. We need the data to reach safely our research facility so that they start making an antidote"

"OK"

Request launch clearance - before clearance given you get an "Urgent communication - accept?"

A face stares at you in the video link. "Uhh, hi. My name is... not important. Thanks for talking to me. I am a freelancer like you. I'll be on the level with you. Our roles could have been reversed now, and maybe they will in the future - so I hope you'll show me the same deference then. I'm being paid by the enemies of your masters to make sure the formula you're carrying never makes it to the destination. I have your ship targeted, and if you try to escape I'll fire... I want to propose you a deal. I'll give you 10% of what I'm being paid if you give the package to me. This way, nobody has to get hurt. Of course, this will anger your masters... That's life. The choice is yours. If you want to fight, I'll fight. Let me know, but quickly. I have other business too."


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shenle
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Woooooo... I'm just getting warmed up.

"CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION available for the right applicant. Nosey characters need not apply"

"We need someone who can keep a secret. And do some precision flying. According to our contacts, you fit the bill.

Our associate is stuck on planet X. He cannot get to a spaceport as the area is patrolled by hostile ships. He found a deep canyon and he is laying low there. Someone needs to go pick him up, but discretely. We don't want anyone to know that he was there. I'm told that the patrolling ships follow a pattern... if you can figure that out, and use the terrain to keep out of sight, you may have a chance. We believe that their ground scan radar cannot distinguish you from terrain if you're below 100m height and your speed is below 250km/h, unless they have a direct visual on you. Then again, our figures may be wrong.

One more thing. We have a prototype cloaking device that we retrieved from an experimental military ship that crashed during trials. We never got it to work right, but if you want to try it, it's yours. You should know that it only functions for 5 minutes at a time, then it needs a 10 minute cooldown before you can turn it on again. If you're successful in this mission, you can keep it. That will be your payment."

Let me know if these are missions you'd like to fly, I can come up with a lot more similar ideas. For instance one I just came up with: request from the military (federal, imperial etc) to infiltrate a gang of pirates and act as an undercover informer. You need to find a way to approach the gang - probably on one of their space stations, taking up some missions for them, get their trust until you can get to obtain the information the military are after. For a mission that complex you would get enough credit with the military to advance several ranks (or, instead you may choose to do 2500 boring delivery missions 🙂 )


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ollobrain
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im waiting for alpha 8 before speculating much more the core development team seem busy


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Marcel
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There's a call for scripted missions in another thread around here somewhere. From what I've read you're a perfect candidate to contribute! 😀


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shenle
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Marcel wrote:
There's a call for scripted missions in another thread around here somewhere. From what I've read you're a perfect candidate to contribute! 😀

If there is, I haven't found it. I see a lot of calls and discussions about 3d models of ships and whatnot, but not scripts like these.


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UncleBob
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I don't know how flexible the LUA-scripting is already, but I think a good way to go for tom would be to make the scripting system flexible enough to allow for multiple missions and branchings (which comes down to conditions that must be fulfilled that a mission is offered, and the ability of the script to set a condition. It's possible that it's already in, actually).

This would give modders the oportunities to write their own campaigns, which should be a lot of fun.

The more extreme alternative is, of course, procedural storytelling, which would be uber-awesome, but I think completely out of scope, at least until 1.0. It's also a risky undertaking... Only a few (older) games have tried it, and generally failed miserable. Procedural storytelling needs one hell of a sound concept to work satisfactorily. It can be done, but would more be a project of its own. In a sand-box game, I also think that procedural storytelling cannot be done properly without a Meta-game that controlls the whole universe, which in itself is a pretty momentuous task, ESPECIALLY in an already procedurally generated environment...


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Subzeroplainzero
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UncleBob wrote:
I don't know how flexible the LUA-scripting is already, but I think a good way to go for tom would be to make the scripting system flexible enough to allow for multiple missions and branchings (which comes down to conditions that must be fulfilled that a mission is offered, and the ability of the script to set a condition. It's possible that it's already in, actually).

This would give modders the oportunities to write their own campaigns, which should be a lot of fun.

The more extreme alternative is, of course, procedural storytelling, which would be uber-awesome, but I think completely out of scope, at least until 1.0. It's also a risky undertaking... Only a few (older) games have tried it, and generally failed miserable. Procedural storytelling needs one hell of a sound concept to work satisfactorily. It can be done, but would more be a project of its own. In a sand-box game, I also think that procedural storytelling cannot be done properly without a Meta-game that controlls the whole universe, which in itself is a pretty momentuous task, ESPECIALLY in an already procedurally generated environment...

What are these games that use procedural storytelling? I'd love to try them out! ..even if they are a bit bleh


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s2odan
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Quote:
Procedural storytelling needs one hell of a sound concept to work satisfactorily. It can be done, but would more be a project of its own. In a sand-box game, I also think that procedural storytelling cannot be done properly without a Meta-game that controlls the whole universe, which in itself is a pretty momentuous task, ESPECIALLY in an already procedurally generated environment...

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What are these games that use procedural storytelling? I'd love to try them out! ..even if they are a bit bleh

Ever hear of Dwarf Fortress? That game uses procedural generation to create almost everything about the world in which you will play, including history, which could be referred to as the story I suppose.

It has procedural Demons from hell in it too, which can get pretty silly. Giant demon ducks with claws, or frog demons made from salt and silly things like that.

I would recommend the game, although it is about the most complicated game ever. It is not for the faint of heart.


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s2odan
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It took me a year or two to work up the courage to play it 😀

The online tutorials are your saving grace if you ever intend to have a try.


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s2odan
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😆

I know what you mean. That game will bring the most powerful computers down on their knees, but thats because it is only single core for the main engine and there is an awful lot going on.

Btw, although by default it is an ASCII game, you do not have to play with the ASCII tileset. Here's a pic of the tileset I use in-game, Im curious to see if you, as someone who does not play, can make heads or tails of it:

[attachment=482:Kinfesea Groundfloor.jpg]

And here are 2 visualiser shots, that can be run along with the game:

[attachment=483:overview ground.jpg]

[attachment=484:overview highup.jpg]

Personally I find it much easier to understand whats going on with the visualiser applications and a good tileset.


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s2odan
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Yes that is a realtime visualiser. You can run it along side the game, however you cannot make changes inside the visualiser and have them effect the game, so you must still use the antiquated interface.

However there is a nice little addon that someone made called MouseFortress, which gives you a handy right-click menu with all of the funtions in it and I have tweaked it to use the mousewheel in the various menus instead of the numpad.

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Perhaps I am exaggerating but not very far.

Only a little 🙂 I would say it would take you about a month or two of casual playing to begin to understand how to make a succesful fort, as the game is not only difficult to interact with (Bad interface) but it is also very hard... at first. But the time you spend is rewarded with an understanding of many complex systems.

For example, Entities don't have health in Dwarf fortress like in conventional games, they have internal organs, circulatory system, a nervous system, bone, skin, hair, teeth, well just about every body part except genitalia 🙂

So to kill an entity, you must stop its vital parts from functioning.

Its this complexity that gives the game it's appeal.

If you ever do feel you would like to play, I'd have some tips for you that would make starting a hell of a lot easier. 🙂


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shenle
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Okay, when I called this thread "...and other inane ramblings" I actually meant "... and other inane ramblings _about_ _Pioneer_"


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s2odan
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🙂

This will get you started well if you are going to give it a go, The Lazy Newb Pack 😉 : http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59026.0

Contains pretty much everything to make the game easier to play in one package.

It will look like this when setup correctly:

screenshotlv.png

Bear in mind though that the game is still difficult to play even with all of that 🙂

I have yet to try the program on the bottom left, but its supposed to make managing things easier.

Edit:

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I wanted to drink a beer! And instead I will be at home with dwarfs!

Recommend a graphic pack please. 🙂

Hehe, well your dwarves like a beer or ten, they are all alcoholics 😀 So make sure you produce enough booze, seriously 🙂

The Lazy Newb Pack I linked to should have the best three graphics packs in them. Personally I use a modified version of Ironhands graphics set, as it is the best looking graphically, although the others have some symbols worked into the graphics to make recognising certain ores easier, so you might find them easier to start with, but its all down to personal preference.

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Okay, when I called this thread "...and other inane ramblings" I actually meant "... and other inane ramblings _about_ _Pioneer_"

Hehe, sorry about that 🙂


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shenle
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LOL just making fun. I'll try the lazy newb pack tonight. 😆


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s2odan
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shenle wrote:
LOL just making fun. I'll try the lazy newb pack tonight. 😆

Ah, Another victim 😈


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shenle
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s2odan wrote:
shenle wrote:
LOL just making fun. I'll try the lazy newb pack tonight. 😆

Ah, Another victim 😈

At this point, I welcome anything that will make me stop trying to establish an Australian-Moldovan empire in Europa Universalis. 😆


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s2odan
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Thats just the world generation, it will push the pc to the limits 😀 Try a small or tiny custom world if its struggling, but the world gen does take a few minutes anyway, and it might appear to hang if its really struggling. You will only have to do that world gen once, as you can use the same world repeatedly and add to the history of that world, with each new fort.

Don't you find the right click menu is easier for you to use that comes with the mouse support? You can also modify it so that the mousewheel acts like numpad + and -. But yes its still pretty crap, you cant really use the mouse pointer for many things, only for designations (mining ect). Buildings and other constructions still need to be placed by the keyboard 🙁


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s2odan
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Hehe. To start with I watched a load of the video tutorials on Youtube by Captain Duck, they explain the basics although they are dated now, there might be some better ones around. I played along while watching the videos for a while, and then went back and rewatched them if I found I had forgotten something.

The tutorials should teach you how to lay down different rooms and constructions as well as farms, once you can do that then you can start to learn by playing around as you will understand how it all works a little more.

I would limit your fort's population cap to around 20-50 and a lower child populationcap as it can be difficult to keep track of them all, plus it will help to keep the game running faster.

Although with a low population the invasions could become pretty tricky after a few in-game years.

EDIT//

Here's a nice tutorial but its not a video one: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=31928.0

Edit2

Here's a funny one about the medical system in the game: http://afteractionreporter.com/2010/05/ ... periments/


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shenle
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s2odan wrote:
shenle wrote:
LOL just making fun. I'll try the lazy newb pack tonight. 😆

Ah, Another victim 😈

Damn you. Damn you. Damn you to hell! 😯 😳 😛


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s2odan
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Hehe I've been playing it tonight as well 🙂

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By default the game has mouse support to select areas etc... Am I wrong if I think the fortressmouse is just for right mouse menus?

It does add in some dodgy mouse support for scrolling the view as well as moving the X pointer when building things, but like I said its dodgy.

I only just realised that you could remap keys in the game 😀 I have setup all the menu navigation and construction keys to simply use the keyboard Arrows or Alt + Arrows, I read that in one of the tutorials I linked to 🙂


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Subzeroplainzero
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I tried playing it recently but I couldn't get the visualiser to work. I don't think it's compatible with the lazy newb pack, or am I wrong? (I hope so)

I did have a major gripe with it though or maybe I'm missing something. When I selected my embark area on the world map, are you then restricted to that small square of the world to build your fort in? I kind of hoped I could expand as far as I wanted a la minecraft.

It's this amazing aar that got me interested in the first place http://www.nzfortress.co.nz/forum/showthread.php?t=20768


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s2odan
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AFAIK the Lazy Newb Pack comes with a visualiser that should work with the provided version, that is if its the same one I posted a pic of, the Isometric visualiser. There are other 3d ones but they probably don't work with the new versions. However, minecraft does 😉 Theres a program to convert dwarf-fortress maps to minecraft format.

For now yes your limited to that small square block that you choose as your embark zone, but in the future plans for the game is a more unlimited kind of expansion and the ability to show other parts of the map in the Fortress mode.

In 'Adventure' Mode, you can go anywhere. I think the idea is to eventually integrate the 2 game options, to be able to start building in adventure mode and start a fort that way.

Adventure mode is like a traditional Roguelike where you can explore the world you created and check out your fort, in case you didn't know.

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It's this amazing aar that got me interested in the first place

There's another popular one called Boat-Murdered. Which was a successional fort with many players taking turns and everything went wrong 🙂


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