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Removing Elite/Frontier content

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Vuzz
 Vuzz
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Potsmoke66
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i ment pinback he's the "rocket fuel engineer", he's moderator (a very moderate one)

and he would have to examine them first i guess.


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sapog662
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Походу некто - несско не трезв...


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robn
 robn
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Topic starter  

You perfectly know that i'm not a coder , so don't tell me i'm free to use LMR system.

The alternative is that the devs use their time to maintain it. Do you think its fair to make that demand?


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robn
 robn
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Topic starter  

first you say you like to hear names (while i think each knows for sure for what he is responsible or not, isn't it?)

If you want to call me out on something, make it clear that you're talking to me.
 

then you say you dislike personal affronts

Nobody likes personal attacks. But if you're going to do it, make sure I know its directed at me and its clear what you're accusing me of.

Seriously. Point at where I've outright lied. Show me where I've said that I want to get rid of you, or misrepresented you, or deliberately tried to make you look bad. And then we can talk.

I won't be commenting further on LMR, other than to acknowledge its demise when alpha 32 is released.

Meanwhile, this thread is about the removal of Frontier Developments IP, which is only loosely related. I wonder if someone can bring it back on topic? 🙂


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Vuzz
 Vuzz
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The alternative is that the devs use their time to maintain it. Do you think its fair to make that demand?

 

Hem , i ask that since the dev team tell us they delete LMR !!!

 

Do you have some memory problem? you don't remenber i'm Vuzz maybe ??? 

 

Ok , I don't really  like these sort of antipodic humour . maybe in your country it's a fashion ...


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Potsmoke66
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the problem is

 

it can't be done with SGM.

 

yes partially,

 

but only partially

 

it will never be the same, never.

 

change ships or names if you like, but the differences between LMR and the new SGM are EXTREME

 

one is a flexible but hard to maintain, rather cool and absolute unique way to create models.

 

the other is as all the rest, and exactly this i dislike, as all the rest, limits are the same if not more actually.

 

you can get a SGM or similar in any game, but the lua modelling resource is unique.

 

it opens doors if one catched that once, closed doors and with removing they will stay closed or be closed again.

 

i never like to see pioneer as "any game".

probably because i'm not like "any guy".

 

robn you say that something like the LMR is, let's say ancient (taking it out of the mothballs)

 

explain me why rodina uses a similar lua based modelling system?

 

because what this guy has in mind can only be done in this way, it's not ancient, it's ahead of time.

yeah it's based on a ancient way of modelling that's true, but that doesn't mean that it's not ahead of all the rest.

 

true you said if one started to create cockpits and pilots everyone will have.

yeah, exactly that's the point it's ahead!

 

why doesn't it have existed or it is often very limited an mostly you see 2dimensional stuff still?

because what exists can't fulfill that, machines can, they handle it like nothing.

the actual machine i own is a last years cheap supermarket model.

but it's to me a giant upgrade and pioneer runs flawless on it, i even can make screencaptures at 20fps and the game runs fluid.

 

again new things can only be found when you start at 0.

 

something like the SGM isn't point 0, it's the end point of a development, further you can't go in this way, end of the road one could say.

 

scripted models have no "end of the road", it hasn't started out right yet.

 

the future will certainly not bring old systems, because they can't deserve the longings of players anymore.

 

he, he, especially if one started once to show what else would be possible.

and especially if players catch once how easy customizable that is compared to the rest.

that everyone can have his very personal ship, car, whatever vessel in any game.

in his fav. color, with his fav. decal on it and his fav. type of pilot (not only for flight or space sims to understand)

probably with his face on the pilots head, everyone like to identify himself with what he owns in a game.

it's MY CITY

it's MY CAR

it's MY PLANE

it's MY SUB

and MY VESSEL shouldn't look as my brothers vessel, obviuosly

 

it's true it makes no difference to gameplay, but who wouldn't like it to personalize the stuff?

i like that very much, and because of this fact in MY NFS4, the Beatles are the drivers. (george drives a lightweight jaguar type-e, ringo a silvershadow DB4 aston martin, i.e.

classic sports cars of course, what do you expected? besides i drive in the game a Lagonda V12 Le Mans, it's MY CAR, it's a overpowered 2tons heavy beast)

it's MY NFS4.

 

robn, in FE2 to get the proper ship, my beloved conny, with the leopard design and the jaws, best in green

or a yellow tiger trader same design,

i wiil use one or more year in the game only to get this ship, it's MY SHIP!

then i open the savegame and enter as reg.nr. GERNOT i.e. it's MY SHIP!

 

that was yesterday, today i would like to personalize all, even the pilot, if possible

it's MY SHIP

 

yeah in rodina you can walk through the ship, or it's planned to do so.

 

that's the FUTURE not "we don't like cockpits and blinking lights", that was yesterday when it wasn't possible for many reasons.

 

---

 

i noticed that you called him up to help us out, do you really think a character like him is interested to work with some who can't see the future?

a character who is able to do this all himself?

 

and i thought i'm naive.


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Brianetta
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you can get a SGM or similar in any game, but the lua modelling resource is unique.

That's it, right there. That's the big problem with LMR. When we only had LMR, we often had modellers coming along to offer their abilities to us, only for them to retract the offer and leave once they realised that their skills could not be applied and that they'd need to learn a new, unique system.

Now we're using the sort of system that other games use, we've made the game accessible to many thousands of modellers, and we're already getting contributions.

In any case, as ever, you're going off topic. This thread's about the removal of those parts of the game which belong to Frontier Developments, and not to us. Sure, this means that your Imperial Courier would be removed from the game. It doesn't belong in Pioneer any more than your X-Wing Fighter does. It's somebody else's property, and we're not licensed to use it.


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Potsmoke66
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as long as we (you, who ever, in which project ever) have no ambition to commercialise it, there is no problem using copyrighted content, or to get more precisely, using rebuild or leaned on a existing thing.

 

AND most of all, show me ONE, only ONE spaceship someone made which is NOT inspired by either a sci-fi movie, tv-series, or novel.

even "elite content" is leaned on a lot of things that has alrerady existed, starts with the aircraft design of the eagle and ends with the "woodlouse" design of the lanner.

 

any idea you can have in this direction has existed already, mor or less, even if i take a underwater snail as idea, it has existed, in nature (most copied artist, has no rights unfortunatly).

 

reason is that the human fantasy even in their wildest dreams is not able to produce something that you wouldn't have seen already in some sort.

 

that is even when the design is leaned on a bitten hamburger and olives on a cocktail stick, it has existed, as a hamburger in this case (YT-1300).

 

thinking about that, anything is a copy of something that already exists

(that's why all this copyright hustle is a stupid mess organized by some who didn't know how to make money tomorrow, or have no quality except to hunt after such, vampires one could say. they have no talent no quality neither any output, only sucking blood)

 

it isn't possible for no artist to make something that hasn't existed in one or the other way.

 

or is a combination or rearrangement of something that exists.

 

FACT IS:

 

everything is a copy of mother nature

 

though, if one would have the right at all on any copyright it would be her.

 

but those people who hunt for copyright infringements have certainly nothing to do with that and aren't even able to create something, not even a copy of something.

 

so far my statement to this copyright bla bla.

 

JOIN COPYLEFT!

 

---

 

but do what you like,

and i mean this without sarcasm, do it!

 

it is in some sort a good decision in some sort a bad.

 

personally i guess, yours should have chosen a different game to destroy.

 

removing LMR and elite content isn't pioneer anymore, at least many players see it in this way.

 

yours have and i have foreseen this two years ago made your own game of it,

without taking respect to the longings of the fans.

 

---

 

to all modellers,

 

you better get comfortable with scripted content.

 

assembling models like it's done in the SGM will be past soon, there we have reached the end of a development.

 

if you like to go further there is only the way of a script (doesn't have to be specific LMR, but some script that gives you the flexibility needed in future) that gives you the right tools.

 

of course you won't have to mess with things like "bezier quads", but to assemble the stuff and to make it alive.

you will further work with a software of course, but only assembling in a script makes it possible to respect the many things needed.

 

it starts with simple stuff like a scanner antenna, and you certainly don't like to see a scanner someone else has designed if one can give you the freedom do design your own.

 

---

 

the near future will be i can walk around in and outside my ship, not "we don't like cockpits".

 

this qustion when i showed off my stuff here in switzerland i heard often:

 

"can i even...?"

 

---

 

 

"and i thought i'm the 20th century guy here, at least i here that often that i live in the past.

well, yes i do live in the past, only who knows the past can see the future."

 

i'm damned good in predicting,

MMO and Wii i have foreseen 1985! (as well as the fall of ussr, or many other things people only shook their head)

don't ask me how the people looked then at me,

"from where wil you, (especialy me, a "nobody") know this?"

 

"the riders of the blue sky have told me so"

 

call me "bub" or "nowhere man" if you like 😉


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Potsmoke66
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further,

 

i didn't see many conflicts between "elite dangerous" and "pioneer", especially for the models part, because what i have seen so far, doesn't shows anything that has existed in elite or FE2, there will certainly be no eagle in the old design.

 

for places like "lave" it's something different, it's something that you can port to any future release of a "elite".

but "lave", as you said yourself is only a name, nothing more, it's exchangable.

 

but we the fans, we like the old eagle as starting ship,

we like this direct reminescence of FE2/FFE, at least i was convinced it is so.

 

nah, no question,

ask geraldine,

ask marcel,

ask the bunch of pioneer players from the first hour,

 

sorry, but i feel WE are pioneer.

 

---

 

personally i think sometimes; "damned gernot you must be better as you ever thought, it seems they fear competition with you".

 

because sorry, yes the courier is a copy, but a damned good copy.

 

further it's half a year or a year ago, you was convinced that our ships, designed new, haven't much to do with what was present in FE2/FFE.

leaned on, but new designed.

 

what is left as logical reason is only one,

 

we have one who likes to control the design of pioneer and nothing that didn't fits to his imagination we will see in pioneer!

it seems to me he fears competition that much that he had to bann everyone who could be "dangerous" for him, a real "softball", imho.

 

this, and walterar is 100% right, is not longer pioneer.


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Potsmoke66
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funny is also to hear from the side of the coders, that cockpits and whatsoever extras get to compley for them to handle.

 

and mr. nobody could it?

 

(of course only with some scripting tool)

 

it isn't to complex for me it seems, i can handle it, it seems, at least many of my ships have used all possibilities that was given to me.

different models, different setups, different colors, cockpit and pilots with already the possibility to assign a faction to them (haven't had the toolö do do this right so it was randomly so far, but of course i thought about all that and worked already in this direction).

 

but that is all to complex now?

(nah, it's not to complex, it's only that there is one who like to do this himself and dictate the style of it, that's the real reason behind

i never dictated, i would have no, really no problem to put a pilot in my ships someone else designed,

as long as we have a peaceful competetive cooperation, but not "i dictate", but i guess he never had to learn this.

again i don't use a name here, the recipient will know who is ment)

 

but i know my models are assembled "coincidentially" as one said once.

 

yeah of course, usually i take some dices and roll them to script a model...

 

is that my problem if one opens one of my scripts and didn't get through? certainly not.

why at all had someone to open one of my models if he's not interested to maintain them?

or to personalize them.

not that i have a problem with that, and yes certainly i'm no coder so there was/are leaks in the scripts.

on the other hand, hmm.. i went through a quite good lua tutorial in german, well you can script "dirty" or "clean" yes, but the result counts.

btw, a dirty script is often better to understand for a nube as a clean, i'm pretty sure.

as a simple example, if i localize all a nube didn't sees through even when that is the proper clean way.

when i use the variables in the expression, the nube understands immediatly what this variable does, but that's dirty scripted.

same for helper functions, if a use a helper function for every tidbit, a nube has no cahnce to understand what is going on.

if i script the expression, prob. 5 times the same, he will understand what it does without having to refere to the function.

 

interesting fact, i didn't think tomm can't script clean, but i guess he used often the "dirty" way, because if one, modeller not coder

should understand how that tard works, it has to be dirty, but understandable for a nube.

that's why i also think we lost the trail with the miisions scripts, you need a lot experience now to understand how they work.

tomms scripts, even a "idiot" like me could understand, you have seen what is what and what happens if.

i guess his idea wasn't that only "pro's" could write lua scripts for models as well as for the rest of scripts.

 

but has one only one who critized me showed something better? (except for tomm, because certainly his scripts was my tutor, further "who critized me" i know that i had a lot of helpful hands otherwise, but they haven't critized me reasonless)

no!

nah, the LMR had to be removed and elite content banned...

to me that is a bit like "i can't handle it, there is one who can, i like to be leader, what can i do? let's bann competitors, then i'm "king".

that's very typical for a "special class" of people, which never had to stand any competition.

since the days of kindergarten i have a big problem with such people,

i can say i really can't smell them, alone their presence makes me angry.

 

robn you said you don't like personal atacks,

 

how many times i have been affronted with such only discrediting utterings?

 

that's like i would say robn is a uneducated fool!

might be we "wir haben das heu nicht auf der selben bühne", we havent the same point of view, but i would never go that far.

 

but with gernot you can do this (not you robn, but you know that i have been affronted in this way)

 

what would you think? or how would you act to accusations like this, certainly you will get angry.


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MSaunders
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Hi,

 

Just to add some positivity: I think this is great progress! I'm a huge fan of Frontier, and when I first tried Pioneer ages ago, I kept grumbling to myself that it deviated from Frontier in various ways. But over time I came to understand that it's a unique game, it deserves its own personality and features, and it can expand beyond the "original" if it has more freedom. Today, I love Pioneer and can't wait to see how it develops -- especially without any worries that the project might get bogged down in IP/copyright issues.

As for core teams, I really have no idea about the politics of all this, but it strikes me that with game development, you often need a small, focused bunch of developers keeping the project on the right track. I've seen lots of FOSS games stray off into different directions and lose focus because nobody really had control or a clear vision.

Anyway, keep up the good work Pioneer devs, and thanks for giving us the best of both worlds: all the stuff that made Frontier awesome, in a new universe to explore. What more can anyone ask for? 😉

 


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Potsmoke66
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well, folks (sorry if i had to interrupt again)

 

when i say "lie", it's exactly this,

 

"no it's no problem, your ships are far from the originals"

 

a year later:

 

"certainly your courier will be removed"

 

that's called here a lie, i don't know how it's called in GB, but in switzerland this is a lie.


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fluffyfreak
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"a year later"


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Fish
 Fish
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 it deserves its own personality and features, and it can expand beyond the "original" if it has more freedom.

 

agreed


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laarmen
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All right.

 

To clarify my further declarations, I must say that while not a member of the Core team, I do help in maintaining and developing Pioneer. Which means I know what this task involves.

 

The Pioneer project is NOT a democracy. We don't have the infrastructure to support this type of organisation, and I see noone volunteering to do the work. Instead, what we have is something along the lines of meritocracy. It means that the final decision comes to those who do the work. I'm not saying that we ('cause I'm the one deciding what I'm working on, core team or not) do not care about what the rest of the community says, and asks. Just, you cannot make us do anything we don't want to (including support). I don't remember who said on #pioneer that "there's no stronger argument than working code", but that's basically how we work.

 

In the case of LMR, the people that decided to remove it were the ones that kept it alive in the first place, which wasn't an easy task and involved hours of work. Volunteer hours. You want LMR, you pick up the slack, we've done our part.

 

In the Elite/Frontier content case, there are two things to consider. First, who felt the need to contact Frontier Development to clarify our status, that was very shady. I am not a regular reader of this forum but I think I would have heard of it if someone other than the core team had done that. Second, who is distributing the incriminated content — i.e., whose ass is on the line if legal actions are taken ? Once again, I've never heard of any other distribution site for Pioneer than the canonical one, which means that the person taking on the biggest risks is robn.

 

Now, if you want this stuff back, you just have to make a mod for it, and distribute it on your own using your own resources, without asking anybody else to risk anything.

 

"But LMR is gone!"

 

In that case, you can either port the models to the new model system, which would be a good time investment in any case since you'd be able to make models for other games with this new knowledge. Or you can fork Pioneer off a31.

 

"But if I fork I won't beneficiate from all the future goodies the current dev will publish"

 

In French we have a say about wanting the butter and the butter money. Progress comes with a price, and here the price is LMR. Your only alternative here would be to merge back all the new shiny stuff.

 

"But I can't code !!!"

 

Neither could I a few years back. Pick up a book on C++, or find some online courses, whatever suits you. That's what I did.

 

Cheers.

 

(who stole my n ?)


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Vuzz
 Vuzz
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"But LMR is gone!"

 

in france we have also another say : don't sale the bear's skin before killing him .


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SubV
 SubV
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My congratulations to Brianetta and other 'team' members for finding most effecive way to kill Pioneer.


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laarmen
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OK, I'll rephrase : "But LMR is gone in the mainline"


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Brianetta
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My congratulations to Brianetta and other 'team' members for finding most effecive way to kill Pioneer.

Time will tell.


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WaveMotion
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My congratulations to Brianetta and other 'team' members for finding most effecive way to kill Pioneer.

I recall someone said something about the right time to skin a bear…


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ollobrain
(@ollobrain)
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the LMR is dead long live the LMR and around it goes, looking forward to future updates just to see where pioneer can actually go from here enjoying alpha 31 btw


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PLecN
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Re: Lave and surrounding systems - is there an actual list I can refer to? Just wondering how many to remove from my own 'trader' app!

 

Also, is there a way I can start at a given location? I'd like to carry on my travels from one release to another - and it would be handy to be able to 'cheat' to a given system, along with the cheat 'ctrl-M' to reset your ship etc.

 

Just wondering ...


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Vuzz
 Vuzz
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pioneer is  under alpha phase , that mean it's in constant developpement  so many thinks can change at each alpha release .


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PLecN
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Bonjour Tourist - are you responding to me?


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