salut , ben ... yes^^

Ah okay - totally understand that we can't carry saves over while Pioneer is in alpha - I supposed that since the opening menu has starting positions, there might already exist some way to have your own starting position. If not, no problem.

generaly the savegames of an alpha are not compatible with the alpha of the next month.

in the end tourist, and i'm not quite sure whats got into me, i said that even before, if there are some freaks like us

that like to play around with the LMR, they would have to do it themselves.

i know neither you and me have a big idea about programming but i guess we are not the only ones who will miss it.

that does prob. mean that we stand still, but doesn't mean we couldn't further participate otherwise.

i can also say i have a handful ideas which i never see realised without something like the lmr,

no opened hatch, neither "space walks", other stuff.

that means in other words, i won't stop anyway, i can't i would say, i'm simply not ready 😉

ok that was a little a different thematic,

but i guess i can say the same about the "elite content"

and before we end up completely isolated

---

i'm sorry that this "seperation", as far as it is one, hasn't happened under more peaceful conditions

for which i'm not little responsible.

but that was yesterday, else i can't go on.

no mater , potsmoke , it's an open source game and everybody's free to make wath he want with this source .

Even if about some consider invested of a supreme authority , in the point to impose has others tools for spots which are not of their domain of competence.

You , me , and many others Fans continue to  like Pioneer . ( But each in his way)

"iu" (yes)

Very sad news to hear. It also saddens me there is so much anger in the community.

If Frontier were contacted and there were no issues then I don't see why the content could not be left unless

a) There is possible plan to release Pioneer commercially in it's own right.

Then it would make sense to have done it. Of course I'm not in the Core team so this is wild speculation and I have NO idea on the real reasons but I keep seeing posts of worry regarding IP but if Frontier have been supportive, then we are missing a piece(s) of the puzzle. 

Maybe the Core team can tell us maybe not..... only time will tell.

Two things:

First of all, commercial distribution or benevolent doesn't change anything WRT the legality of distributing copyrighted material. If you don't have the copyright or a licence to distribute (which can however make the commercial distinction, like CC-BY-NC for the Creative Commons licences) you're breaking international laws.

Second, we are a free software project (or open source, in this regard it doesn't make much difference). As such, even if FD would grant Pioneer the right to distribute non-commercially some of its IP, we wouldn't be able to without infringing two fundamental principles: The first would be the liberty to redistribute, since FD would probably grant only permission to the Pioneer project, not, say, Debian or Arch Linux. The second would be the right to use commercially the software.

Most people have difficulties grasping this concept, but it is true: you can sell free software, and if you can't then it is not free software.

The only way we could distribute the old Elite content would be if FD would license the original models under a free software licence compatible with ours (CC-BY-SA 3.0 for the assets), which I doubt will happen.

Also, note that even if there were plans to make a commercial distribution of Pioneer from the Core Team, the game would remain open source (and thus free as long as you know how to compile it) because they are not the only copyright owners. Knowing them, I'm entirely certain they don't have such plans anyway.

Pioneer is not going commercial.

Dunno why that keeps coming up but lets be clear on that, it's not 🙂

It's really simple, it's not our IP.

IP doesn't only apply if you're trying to make a profit.

Frontier Developments made us a generous offer that was unfortunately incompatible with our licensing. I'm not going into more details out of respect for them. I don't want to tell the world what they were willing to offer without their permission as it might cause trouble for them when negotiating with other groups in the future (ie "you made this offer to Pioneer, why not us?").

As for "going commercial", that could only happen in the traditional sense (ie without source code) if everyone listed in AUTHORS.txt (collectively the "Pioneer Developers") agreed to it. And that's why do our copyright assignment this way - every name we add to that list further reduces the chance that this could ever happen.

I say "in the traditional sense" because you can sell Pioneer if you want. Right now. Put it on a CD, put it in a box and put it on shelves. That's entirely above board. But, you have to give out the source code with it, and you can't stop me buying it and then giving (or even selling!) a copy to all my friends, and them to their friends, and so on down the line.

This is business as usual in the free software world since its beginnings over thirty years ago. Don't bitch and moan about it here, nothing you say has not been said before. Instead, go and read the voluminous writings on the topic.

... because you can sell Pioneer if you want. Right now. Put it on a CD, put it in a box and put it on shelves.

Aye... that's open source. Someone was selling Oolite on CD a couple of years ago.

PROPOSAL:
The new project is transferred to Pioneer-New (or whatever name you want)
That Pioneer stay as it is. Surely someone will take care (or not) and will continue the original project.

I don't really see how this resolves anything. No project, regardless of name, has been given permission to use Frontier Developments IP in a way that is compatible with Pioneer's licensing.

So the conflict is not resolved.

There isn't really a conflict, just a few people who don't appear to understand how licensing works. I'm completely happy with the situation, as is everyone I've spoken to that regularly contribute to Pioneer.
 

Unless the Pioneer project creator, Tom Morton, made ​​public his opinion on the subject. Is this possible?

It makes no difference. Frontier Developments own the IP. They have offered us a license to use it, under conditions that aren't compatible with Pioneer's own licensing. tomm's opinion cannot change this fact.

yes papi,

in other words you also like to restrict the use of "elite content" in conjunction with pioneer to others? (i do mean you, not the holders of the IP)

wouldn't that be their duty?

what is about the agreement i had once with frontier devs?

(oh, i forgot i'm only gernot...)

---

walterar please you make me laugh so i can't type anymore 😆

I ask in return Is that you bring down the government

for this job you need MEN

men who are willing to leave all behind for a idea

all what society says is "morality"

all what is gold

all what keeps you in a warm cosy bed (even your beloved wife & children)

men who doesn't fear dead

or fear to loose freedom more as dead.

men for whom the future of their sisters/brothers counts more as their own life.

i ask myself often if i'm ready, but... well.

but good, very good, fantastic quote.

(smoking pipe can help, hm? at least to keep the temper)

prob. yeah something else is needed as well, a new thinking model,

because the old model is overaged and hasn't worked out well (head commands, segments follow, segments have to beg)

and a new model is requested, can you imagine how this new model looks like?

that would get us on our way to "bring down the government" without a fight.

there is a example in nature for this new model...

pioneer WAS has once reflected this thinking model.

of course tomm wanted to place a "cornerstone" for us.

but the building doesn't worked out so well i guess and hangs a bit over.

->

because i was thinking if i should post simply the "burning flag" under a thread "what means pioneer - to you".

while i wouldn't have commented to it, only to see what's the result.

"only to see what's the result..."

pioneer is a fantastic "social experiment" (besides of a "half finished" game 😉 ), tomm is quite a clever lad, still, i'm stunned sometimes.

and dammit it would be shit if it didn't works...

in other words you also like to restrict the use of "elite content" in conjunction with pioneer to others? (i do mean you, not the holders of the IP)

I have no say in the matter. I do not own the Frontier IP, nor can I change Pioneer's licensing to accomodate their offer.
 

what is about the agreement i had once with frontier devs?

If you have your own agreement with Frontier that's your business. It does not apply to the project as a whole.

ergo (result is...)

Two things:

 

First of all, commercial distribution or benevolent doesn't change anything WRT the legality of distributing copyrighted material. If you don't have the copyright or a licence to distribute (which can however make the commercial distinction, like CC-BY-NC for the Creative Commons licences) you're breaking international laws.

 

Second, we are a free software project (or open source, in this regard it doesn't make much difference). As such, even if FD would grant Pioneer the right to distribute non-commercially some of its IP, we wouldn't be able to without infringing two fundamental principles: The first would be the liberty to redistribute, since FD would probably grant only permission to the Pioneer project, not, say, Debian or Arch Linux. The second would be the right to use commercially the software.

Most people have difficulties grasping this concept, but it is true: you can sell free software, and if you can't then it is not free software.

 

The only way we could distribute the old Elite content would be if FD would license the original models under a free software licence compatible with ours (CC-BY-SA 3.0 for the assets), which I doubt will happen.

 

Also, note that even if there were plans to make a commercial distribution of Pioneer from the Core Team, the game would remain open source (and thus free as long as you know how to compile it) because they are not the only copyright owners. Knowing them, I'm entirely certain they don't have such plans anyway.

I know what you are saying but it does not answer the question because then how does Oolite do it ? I know the Core team do not know, don't want to know and don't care what Oolite does but if Frontier do not have an issue with it, and they are the only ones that could take action, then again I do not see what is stopping you unless you know something ELSE.

You keep mentioning IP, again Frontier told you (as you said) they have no issue so you can keep going ahead. So in this case you either choose to remove Elite content or as I said there is something else in the mix. Either way the Core team makes the calls and it is up to them whether we like it or not but I don't understand the IP talk because the Core team said Frontier do not have an issue with it, therefore it is a non issue.

🙂

EDIT: Ok I just read this above by Brianetta which COMPLETELY changes my post here.

"It makes no difference. Frontier Developments own the IP. They have offered us a license to use it, under conditions that aren't compatible with Pioneer's own licensing. tomm's opinion cannot change this fact."

Ok, so what was OFFERED was not compatible with Pioneer. Ok NOW I understand.

So you are not ALLOWED to continue to use the IP then.....sorry this was just different to how I read the original posts, I thought Frontier had no issue at all, ok gotcha.

This makes sense now. (assuming this is now correct).

That mean FD make an  offer they know  Perfectly that the Pioneer's dev team can't accept without leave the status of open source sofware ? 

if it's this case , that mean FD don't let the choice to the Pioneer core team , they  must delete all frontier content .

i'm right ? 

That mean FD make an  offer they know  Perfectly that the Pioneer's dev team can't accept without leave the status of open source sofware ? 
 
 
if it's this case , that mean FD don't let the choice to the Pioneer core team , they  must delete all frontier content .
 
i'm right ? 

You're looking for a conspiracy that doesn't exist. It is not Frontier Development's job to work out what would and would not be acceptable to us. They have their IP and they're quite entitled to guard it jealously. They chose to make a very generous offer to share it with us that unfortunately we couldn't accept. Don't make them out to be the bad guy; they're really really not.

You're looking for a conspiracy that doesn't exist. It is not Frontier Development's job to work out what would and would not be acceptable to us. They have their IP and they're quite entitled to guard it jealously. They chose to make a very generous offer to share it with us that unfortunately we couldn't accept. Don't make them out to be the bad guy; they're really really not.

ho , no its really not my intention , i just try to clearly understand .

may i can remember you that i've really not a good english pratice , if all i post since the begun of my pseudo Vuzz may  yopu think i'm a sort of troll ( like D1 call me in MP). consider that my english pratice was just for these forum , and maybe some term can be not adequat.

So , i just want to  understand what sort of "generous offer" they make that was in contradiction with the licence of Pioneer.

I clearly understand that you can tell here what sort of licence they offer , but in guest it was a commercial licence ?  

i'm right ?  

So , i just want to  understand what sort of "generous offer" they make that was in contradiction with the licence of Pioneer.

As I said earlier, I'm not willing to publicise the details without permission from Frontier Dev. Which I'm not seeking, because I just don't think its important.

ok , i understand , 

But i ask you that about my Pioneer Genesia .

I used that only for personal use , and put a link to Dowload that ONLY for personal use.

but do you think that  it can give some problem in the future if a bag guy used that for illegal use ? 

i want to clearly understand , i don't want be in illegality . And certainly do want make any sort of perjudice to FD because i'm just a fan of frontier serie , that's all .

Maybe if i convert  Genesia as a  total Mod for only Alpha 31 that be more secure ? 

My idea is just to preserve the entire collection of( LMR , frontier , and more ) models making since the begun ( only for the players who want using these for personal use).

I'm not a lawyer. I can't give legal advice. Sorry.