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-_- ...ok end of transmistion .( clearly a problem of comunication whit the terrian called Robn) . :mda:

(oh, yes, I forgot the traditional IANAL too) As it shows here, the way copyright and licences, furthermore free software licences, work is a tricky thing and you cannot assume that people that are not actively involved in free software projects know the specificities involved. I don't know about Oolite, I've never even played the game, but my guess is that they have one of the two following positions :- They consider that their content is NOT related to Frontier Development IP, which might be true. That's a luxury Pioneer cannot afford, since the filiation is quite obvious in our case.- They have the common "if nobody sues us, we're in the clear" approach. (or they've made a deal with FD and their licencing doesn't conflict with it) In any case it is none of our business. For FD, i don't know anything more than you guys about the offer, but like I said, we cannot assume that they know how it works in our world. My guess is, they made an offer which would be really nice for any traditional closed-source clone, thinking that the only difference with Pioneer is that we publish the sources. That would be total good faith, just bad understanding of Free Software.

As I said earlier, I'm not willing to publicise the details without permission from Frontier Dev. Which I'm not seeking, because I just don't think its important. I think the root cause is here. Because you for your reasons do not think it is important it only brews speculation. I have tried to follow the thread and because there are a few questions, this is why people are a little worried. The best I can do is try to ask them directly if that is ok so here goes. This should put it to rest. a) Does Frontier have a problem with you continuing Pioneer with all the previous Elite content. ?All this needs is a yes or no. Yes I know it may not be as simple as that but just a direct response would help. If Yes-->it is understandable that you wish to remove content. You were offered helpful assistance and advice and a possible license etc which the Core Team felt was not compatible with Pioneer's development and you do not want to go into details. ok all fair enough. and yes it is acknowledged Frontier was very kind and generous in their assistance. This we understand.  If No--> Then I don't understand why you do not keep the content as Frontier are the ones that can have an issue with the content but if they don't then it is a non issue and you could continue Pioneer the way you wanted with the Elite content (unless the Core team personally don't want to of course). You in essence have permission from them to continue. Citing IP is a non issue because again because the owners do not have a problem with it. It's like me asking a band "can I use your music that you own the copyright for" if they say "yes" well then that means I can, and sure it means they can rescind this at ANY time. Is it a "yes" or a "no" ? This should clear it up once and for all :girlcrazy:

this is why people are a little worried.What are you worried about? Is it a "yes" or a "no" ? This should clear it up once and for all :girlcrazy:As I've stated repeatedly an offer was made to use Frontier's IP under licensing that was not compatible with ours. Which is neither a "yes" or a "no" to your question.

What are you worried about? As I've stated repeatedly an offer was made to use Frontier's IP under licensing that was not compatible with ours. Which is neither a "yes" or a "no" to your question.Correct you are not answering the question at all. Sorry but it is evading the question. Did Frontier have a problem with Pioneer continuing as it was. their position is binary they either have an issue or they don't (at the moment). This is a simple yes or no. Not if they offered you anything but if they had a problem with you continuing. If they did, then fair enough as I have cleared up but if no then it is a non issue so again a yes or no response would again sort it out. Please I am not asking this witrh arrogance at all but with a humble tone.

@StyggronWe can't give a yes or no because it never got that far along and it's just not that simple.We've repeatedly tried to tell you that. We don't have permission, nor do we have a threat to remove it.We got as far as a suggested possible license that wasn't compatible with Pioneers current licensing so we couldn't take that one. Maybe we could have continued to try and work it out but there are problems with that:A) We're not laywers,B) We had a perfectly good plan B in that we could just remove the content,C) There's no guarantee that we'd have worked something out which was any different to us removing the content. No FD didn't state that they had a problem, BUT they did want to do some kind of licensing deal.That implies that if we couldn't work one out, we'd have to remove the content anyway.We didn't discuss it any further with them so it never got that far. If you're worried about Oolite then Oolite should contact them and ask like we did. Andy

Thank you Fluffy, and Robn this makes the position crystal clear now. The line that fixed it was "No FD didn't state that they had a problem, BUT they did want to do some kind of licensing deal." I understand now. I have to admit reading all the threads that perhaps did not come out quite as clear, at least for me, it was clear that talks happened but not that they did WANT to do some kind of deal. That was the missing piece...that I did not see mentioned explicitely sorry if I did miss it. I was just wanted to fully understand. With this understanding now, I for one can evangelise and try to back the Pioneer team up as best I can. Thank you for your patience with so many people.

I for one can evangelise and try to back the Pioneer team up as best I can.I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but if you were planning to, please do not frame this as a "Pioneer vs Frontier Developments" kind of thing. Its really not. Frontier Developments are awesome, and you will not hear core team say a bad word against them.

Yeah FD have been really good, it's us who couldn't see a better way forward, so chose this route. This thread is 6 pages long just to say what Robn said in the first post

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but if you were planning to, please do not frame this as a "Pioneer vs Frontier Developments" kind of thing. Its really not. Frontier Developments are awesome, and you will not hear core team say a bad word against them.I know Frontier are awesome and extremely helpful I will never say a bad word about them I respect them, they are ALWAYS helpful. It was NEVER my intention to create any vs, I was just looking for understanding which can only be gained from facts. There is NO vs here whatsoever. I can certainly see how it can be interpretet as such because of the direct question I phrased. The only reason I had to frame the question with a yes or no is that for me at least, the posts were still unclear and I did not understand them to the clarity level needed. Fluffy's post made it crystal with that single line. It eliminated all other questions and cleared it up entirely. and what I mean by evangelise is if I ever hear anything against either side because of lack of info, I can point them here for the facts and give positive comments for both parties whom I have a great deal of respect and admiration for.

Yeah FD have been really good, it's us who couldn't see a better way forward, so chose this route. This thread is 6 pages long just to say what Robn said in the first post :(Ummmm because the first post did not explain certain things when one reads it. . By only reading that first post there is no indication of what you said fluffy in the post above, the line that made it much clearer. If it had that, then yes all questions would have been eliminated. That detail was not there and did not come through till much later and thus still leaves some speculation. If it were first then yes but that detail was lacking so there was still unanswered q's but now there are none. It is crystal as I have said....at least for me.

It never occurred to anyone that we didn't want to discuss it at all because it doesn't help anything, any other project, affect the outcome, or drag FD or ourselves into it any further? If someone goes and makes a mod with the FFE ships then our decision doesn't help them decide if they're legally ok or not.If another project is making a Frontier/FFE clone then our decision doesn't help them decide if they're legally ok or not. We were trying, very very very hard not to discuss it at all because there just isn't anything to discuss that isn't in that first post.We had some discussions, they (FD) were awesome, out of everything that was discussed this is what we're doing.That's all in that first post and it avoids going into what those discussions were about because they were done with a private company (FD) and what we discussed might not be something they'd consider for another project so it'd be massively rude, and dishonest, of us to expose it all. The more you guys pester us for more and more information the worse it been getting for us. I'd rather just be making the damned game

"No FD didn't state that they had a problem, BUT they did want to do some kind of licensing deal." Finally something that makes sense and it is easy to understand.If this was told right from the start , it would prevent many arguments (most theories and half words and half ideas and half hints). As for me, I'm happy with the explanation. I guess it is time to close the thread and move on...

"No FD didn't state that they had a problem, BUT they did want to do some kind of licensing deal." Finally something that makes sense and it is easy to understand.If this was told right from the start , it would prevent many arguments (most theories and half words and half ideas and half hints). As for me, I'm happy with the explanation. I guess it is time to close the thread and move on... I completly agree , After theses explanations i think the Core team have take the good decision for the future dev of Pioneer , the dev team take her total liberty and with the new system SGM they can more easily build news differents ships than the "Frontier Models".

Hey people, For what it's worth (and I haven't been involved since 2011), I agree that Elite/Frontier content should be removed from Pioneer. When I appealed here for contributors in 2010 it was a weakness on my part that I allowed content that may have been derived from Frontier to enter Pioneer. I didn't want to dissuade contribution at a time when the project really needed people, but in the long run it was probably counter-productive. Anyway, Frontier is a very bland milkyway game world (despite how much we loved it); we can take the basic astronomical setting and do something entirely better with it.

massively rude, and dishonest, of us to expose it all. Everyone has their own opinion, But I just don't think it can be considered dishonest to expose the truth to those who support you. (I use the term support quite loosely here ) Open development...thats all I will say. Edit// Actually I will say a little more I just wanted to clarify that I do support the core team's decision to remove Frontier content. Pioneer will be able to pave it's own way from now on. But I just didn't support the decision not to say clearly why it was happening. I love when things are kept open to all.

Thanks Tom, you are a legend. Your clarification removes any doubt regarding present and future of "their baby". And ... what of defeat the government? Still valid? :O :good:

And ... what of defeat the government? Still valid? :O :good: Getting more valid everyday far as I can see

Hehe. Plans are afoot... the government won't know what hit them

 Everyone has their own opinion, But I just don't think it can be considered dishonest to expose the truth to those who support you. (I use the term support quite loosely here ) Open development...thats all I will say. Edit// Actually I will say a little more I just wanted to clarify that I do support the core team's decision to remove Frontier content. Pioneer will be able to pave it's own way from now on. But I just didn't support the decision not to say clearly why it was happening. I love when things are kept open to all.chapeau bas !