It is safe to delete it, as it shouldn't be there. besides, i would like to see it.is it a scriptet geometry?how do you launch the lunar lander, with a saturn? (decoupling, i think would be a problem)even when i feel personally that pioneer isn't ment to do realistic spaceflights, but as a sidetrip it's a cool idea.i have watched a clip of orbiter and i must say, no i wouldn't like it, it's to sophisticated for me.you could do a favor for me, i can't compile pioneer on my mac, due to the fact that my machine refuses to install the needed libraries and i havn't the patience to hunt that error.but i would appreciate the modelviewer in the mac build (next release) if that is possible, but i also remember that i couldn't compile the MV since a while in the windows build, perhaps you got the same problem?and please forget the issue i posted last night, i'm a idiot, i have missed the changes to the adverts* and further i took the wrong version for comparison.this has produced a big confusion. sober i'm good for nothing i guess** 
it's running fine now*only curiosity, no criticism, what's the purpose of the tagging for the adverts?**even a reason for my actual agression level, i hope it will change soon, because i start to dislike myself. but i will keep on staying sober it's better.yes me, the "40 year old hippie" starts to lock away his pipe - perhaps a fruit of pioneer and all of thee.[/hr]don't get angry, but i feel it all heads into a direction that in the end only "shoe-boxes" will work in pioneer.really i feel it heads to solid meshes like ".X", with matrix animations and no more dynamic use of submodels.i think, like some other changes that has happened, it's all based on the unwill of some to get comfortable with the LUA model system.a promise, if it ever comes to that point, you finally get rid of me and i will never disturb you anymore.that fear is also based on things like the absolut needless change of the UV for .obj*, this has lead (i repeat myself) that many of my models still look disranged.actually the "viper x" is destroyed and it's hull is completely transparent (if it's still there at all) th adder is still textured wrong and i can't say what else to. to me it's like someone likes to destroy all i've contributed to pioneer, please understand that such makes me a bit angry.you can tell me FACE TO FACE if you dislike me and my models, that would be far better, i don't like sly things!*well actually it is wrong now for righthanded models, but even if it would have been wrong before (which is not the case), it would have been better to left it "wrong".as example, in the very beginning of electrical engineering the current flow has been set to a given direction (assumed from positve to negative) decades later it has been made proof that the current flow is vice versa, but to avoid complications it has been left "wrong". it doesn't matteres and our computers work fine even when the layout didn't reflects the true physical situation.farther, i've been told that i have a low bus factor and that my models are unmaintainable for others, i still wait for a tangible explanation to what exactly is so complicated or unmaintainable, a reason why i opened the "let's point it out" thread here (no, it didn't belongs to the issue tracker).if no one can tell me what exactly is "wrong", sorry, then i feel this is a raid against me and nothing else.i've been also told that i'm, let's say excluded, from contributing because i don't fully participate via github or because i have no presence on the IRC channel.well, many here know me as a kind guy who likes to help beginners, i don't mind much how experienced one is in a certain thing, i'm willing to help.what i don't understand, why no one of you is interested to back up me?
i know and i remember that i've said a long time ago that i'm perhaps not the best choice, therefore i loved TomM's decision for the LUA modelling system from the very start. mainly because of the closeness to FE2 and i feel personally that it offers much more as what is possible with "industrial standards".i remember TomM feared to find any modeler at all who get comfortable with it and he was more then happy to find at least one like i said before, i know it has limitations and it's true it limits the range of modelers contributing to pioneer.but on the other hand, i would say let them contribute to whatever they like, there are masses of games under development, some of the comrades of FFED3D doing actually commercial models, they have evolved a lot (compared to me, i got stuck with LUA, but i LOVE it).perhaps i'm only angry because i will vanish from the scene without pioneers LUA modeling system besides of that, if that's a fact (...turn away an interested artist every few weeks...), why don't you pipeline them to me? i could help, i would like to help.i mean if a beginner like me can handle it, what will close out a more experienced modeler? i'm pretty sure they are able at least what i'm able to.i really would like a close coop with some more experienced modelers, i could learn a lot in this way.of course i understand to, that some do professional work, freelancing or on the staff and have no interest to waist their time with LUA.i remember coolhand told me once that he isn't able to do what i do with the LUA system, i don't believe that , but for above reason it's obvious.
The simple fact is that most artists will be familiar with exporting meshes; I.e. solid meshes, with texture mapping (diffuse, normal, specular, etc) and it would be good to make it easier for them to get up and running so we can get more peoples ideas into the game.This doesn't mean that we lose the use of sub-models, there are plenty of games that manage ok with those, but even if it did it would be a minor sacrifice to get more people aboard in my opinion. 
I know, I know, controversial.What we could do with for models even if we stuck with the existing LMR/Lua system is a tool that makes creating, verifying and getting them into the game a LOT easier. Possibly even generates the Lua for you, lets you select models and sub-models from a list - positioning and all. What you eventually end up with though is going to look a lot like a full 3D editor.The way forward, and I bet it's what the people on FFED3D found as well, is that meshes are better from just about every possible viewpoint. They can be better animated, textured, are easier to create and so open up that creation to more people and you can still have sub-models, plus there are massive performance benefits. Even better than that though, those sub-models aren't there because of a script which decides if they're attached or not, but are instead added as sub-objects in the game - that means you could blow the antenna off if we wanted! Visually as well as in the game logic.Gernot, I find these arguments against moving towards meshes to be weird. Whenever I've given an artist bigger textures, a higher polygon budget, easier animations and simplifed getting their work into a game... they're generally really happy rather than threaten to quit 
it's not that i'm completly against solid meshes, i only FEEL it will limit things a bit.because, certain things like real dynamic changes of a mesh arn't easy possible, as example the wiggling tail of the "Turner Class".yes, it can be done i know, you can animate a vertex group of course to do such, but 1st you need a fitting game engine, 2nd a fitting file format, 3rd i'm not sure if this is really better as a animated bezier in a scripted geometry.besides all of that, making models with 4LOD's with meshes needs to make 4 meshes, while the scripted geometry has it's divisions set by the LOD and you don't have to care for such.nostalgic? certainly yes 
i guess i can get comfortable with whatever modeling system, i mean i've hacked them as example for FFED3D to make some stuff appear in the way i like or to work around some limits given by XNA (dx6 or 7 i guess) dreamzz used to create his wrapper.and i said that before, i really feel i'm not good enough to compete with guys like coolhand or solcommand. perhaps i shouldn't idolise them that much but....i know its egoism of me, because i know as long as we have the LUA models i havn't much competitors. btw, underestimating isn't a bad thing, no?at least better rather the opposite (yes, it can be a handicap, no one has to tell me that, that's why i'm only a construction worker, only helper often and perhaps one reason why i'm still unemployed, or why i never made a cent with my artworks at all, i'm not good in selling myself. sometimes this simply lets me think i'm not good enough, i can't help, it's me. i remeber i presented some of my paintings to a artist in the netherlands and he enforced me to do more and that he can see i could get some out of it, but i'm still not convinced. i guess i'm cowardice one could say. farther every "i don't like it", which is common and i have to expect such, tears me down ten times more rather a compliment could upright me).argh, it's shitty to have a inferiority complex, you get nowhere and often useless agressive... i guess good, since it never was fully supported, i only stumbled over that.on the other hand...it's not that bad, i mean perhaps i would have liked it if it would have been fully supported.of course this means that the same texture will get used for all LOD's, but anyway you have to restrict them from LOD1 and make a different mesh for LOD1 at least, else you get a remarkable performance hit. farther i stopped since a long time to use different sized textures, this since we have mip-mapping and i have been told that it's as good as to use different sized textures (right?).still a voice in the back of my head is telling me that it perhaps might be still clever to use a very basic small texture for LOD2 instead of the full sized sheet.e.g. like what you've got in many games, a little "box" on which you plaster a "lookalike" texture (like a shot from each side of the model).though i'm a little torn... was it good or not 
anyway it's fact now and i'm happy that i found the reason at all. [/hr]not without to squeeze a little tear out of the corner of my eye, i think it's not a complete bad idea to give up the scripted geometry.but if you do so, do it quick and painless :mrgreen:that would mean some models won't work anymore, actually since my PC isn't running yet i'm not able to make quick conversions of the scripted models, else it would be no problem to snapshot them with OGLE. Its also worth noting that its likely going to take months before this is ready for use, so the existing system will be a part of our lives for a good while yet. i will search for the link(s)further OGLE is also available on the page from ETH zürich (eigenössische technische hochschule, zürich)it's a cool tool imo, i extracted once a whole scene from pioneer, you can later watch or render the scene in blender from any angle or position.on the other hand, i cant tell you what OGLE will change on your OS, it's at least a violation of Open GL. "was'n das?" (what is that good for? not ment as criticism)[attachment=1169:Bildschirmfoto 2012-04-20 um 17.44.23.png]well, i have some idea, but shouldn't there be a 100% too?
that's not true.i must have read a lot of them, but usually i play and if i encounter a problem then i start to read.that was a bit different for FE2, but it was fun to read (and even simearth's manual was fun to read and a source of knowledge).without RRT2's manual i wouldn't have been able to make the missions of course (else i played the original many years before, so i knew the game).i had books filled with "manuals", from my daddy, such as "ich sag dir alles", or "wie funktioniert das", back from the 50's.there was manuals in it how to plaster a street, or how a lathe works, how a orchestra is scored, what size a soccerfield is, ... and, and, and.and sometimes on the throne i read manuals of all kind, this since childhood do we have a lecture which i can take to the throne?and if you ever think i have confusion in mind, now you know why [/hr]to sad not all of you can read german i found a "manual" for "Staats- Stadt- Haus- und Landwirthschaft" from the 18th/19th century.when i start to read it i knew where "old shatterhand" has it's knowledge from.anyway here's the linkhttp://kruenitz1.uni-trier.de/it's a must read imo.and for those who can't read german, well they can have at least a good laugh from the pictures in ithttp://kruenitz1.uni-trier.de/postkarten/kruenitz_pk.htmli like this one especiallythis ones of special interest for us