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like i said before introduce some content above what inspired pioneer in the first placefactional system, more of a dynamic system, that said i think its a good thing to remove some of the frontier content out of pioneer and this might be enough to push it into its own thing.As for the haters they make some noise but just throw some more content in there take inspiration from other areas. LIsten to outside voices, and new contributors and move forward long live pioneergood to hear fronteir were willing to give some undisclosed help as well

I think you're confused. If the self-proclaimed "core team" decided to change the original essence of the Pioneer project, they should change their name and move to a fork. Otherwise can be considered as a mere usurpation. Not easy.

always read the sames things : if we change this system, that decides news artists to joint pioneer ; If we delete that , new contributors may work whit us , etc , etc . If we decide to be a non clone of frontier maybe they help us ... Pioneer is a clone of a game who is fallin in public domain , so it's no neccesary to change anything , Maybe if DB have really work on a sequel of FFE a long time ago , Pioneer does no begun .But all fans wait after this event too many years , and you mean he want that pioneer don't work on the same universe of Frontier Dangerous ? and what about Oolite and FFED3D , they have been contacted too ? do you think they 're be ok to delete all their ships ? I think the Core Team have loose the contact whith reality , Pioneer is an "amateur" game and not else . Having phone contact whith the dev team of DB don't give Pioneer a particular status , stop to dream ^^

The best solution is to remain calm. Firstly, we do not know for what reason have occurred these passionate events. Secondly, none of us has offered us what to do , where to go. I am sure that we're all adults, smart people, all this has not happened just like that, and all of us, together, to find an acceptable solution to what happened. I am sure that if we know about the causes in more detail, you'll find solutions more quickly.

Pioneer is a clone of a game who is fallin in public domain , so it's no neccesary to change anything , Maybe if DB have really work on a sequel of FFE a long time ago , Pioneer does no begun .But all fans wait after this event too many years , and you mean he want that pioneer don't work on the same universe of Frontier Dangerous ? and what about Oolite and FFED3D , they have been contacted too ?Frontier was not falling into public domain. It is, and remains, a copyrighted work, and it absolutely doesn't belong to us.If you want to know whether Oolite or FFED3D people have been speaking with Frontier people, I suggest you simply ask them. I don't know, and I don't really care.

The best solution is to remain calm. Firstly, we do not know for what reason have occurred these passionate events. Secondly, none of us has offered us what to do , where to go. I am sure that we're all adults, smart people, all this has not happened just like that, and all of us, together, to find an acceptable solution to what happened. I am sure that if we know about the causes in more detail, you'll find solutions more quickly. Sapog you are the voice of reason  The acceptable solution is really simple, we replace, rework or rename some ships and spacestations as we have already been doing.Then we change some place names, and update them to show off what the engine can really do, as we have already been doing.Then we update the UI to the new style, as RobN has already been doing. In other words, we keep doing what we've been doing for a long time, but now we do it with a deliberate purpose

Exactly what is "Elite/Frontier content" ?? Ships? Entire solar systems? Mission types? Can't use the same names? Is the cockpit art going to be deleted as well? I have seen persons doing remakes based on other games (like Wing Cmdr Privateer remake) that expand the original universe, but the core - ships, races, weapons- always remains the same. While i do not use the Lanner or the Eagle i reckon them as iconic ships and im sad to see them go. Even if the Eagle is nothing but a normal figher aircraft with inverted wings.

Satisfy me Your answer. I am glad that we can work on.

Exactly what is "Elite/Frontier content" ??Imagine you had a fan-made Star Wars game, and after speaking with LucasArts you decided to remove all the Star Wars content from the game. It's an analogous situation; you remove replace or rewrite as necessary. The fundamental aspects of the game itself are not under any threat.You might be aware that Homeworld was originally written as a Battlestar Gatlactica game, but Relic Entertainment couldn't secure the rights to it. The game isn't really any different to what they had planned; it just doesn't use any Battlestar Galactica content.

@Starblade,No you can't copyright a lot of those things, you can still have, for example: "a normal figher aircraft with inverted wings" - but make it look a bit different, or remodel it from scratch with new textures, a higher res model and a different name. Likewise we probably won't have Lave as a system, but we can still have a hard starting option that begins in a far-out star system with limited resources, options and there are pirates around etc. Besides we're not a remake of Frontier, the tagline is "inspired by" ;)We want to go beyond what Frontier was, no less, and a lot more.

so if pioneer is "inspired by" we just change names , because the level of builds is not exactly the same of the old models of frontiers games, the Pioneer's models have just a form "inspired by", and can't be considering as copy ? 

sapog I would like to hear a representative of the command of developers. I would suggest again: Give the opportunity to the players themselves to develop their game. I mean, Design, build, scenarios and events within the game, during the game. Give players the opportunity to much to add in game. And goods and the weapons and equipment. Make a game object so that it can be and create, and kill. I don't like multiplayer, but you can do that.))) In this case, having a basic set of the game, each player will contribute, and with interest. exactly this WAS pioneer... oh, most old "elite cracks" dislike multiplayer  don't ask me why, but it's a fact (i guess i know why, mobbing is the simple reason. but worst of all is mobbing in a opensource project). --- erm, fluffyfreak,i'm displeased to, believe me,i'm displeased since i have been called "idiot" and "plagiator".i'm displeased that my models have been handled neglected, prob. even willingly destroyed.i'm displeased that criticism didn't get accepted.i'm displeased with a modelling system which offers "nothing" to me.i'm displeased that the veto (as far as they dared to vote against our "kings") of players counts a shit.i'm very displeased that nearly none of the updates to my ships has found a way to the official release.i'm displeased that i was the only modeller who had to fulfill the condition to contribute via github, which has lead to the situation of the shit looking models.which HAVE BEEN DESTROYED VERY UNWISELY (willingly, no one can tell me something else, just look at the facts).i'm displeased that as soon as it was noticed tht i make also fine looking ships with any system, i was decided finally* to remove all elite content, with knowing that this will mean removing of nearly all my models, making also impossible to contribute them to a official release.(not that such wouldn't have been debated before, but well i can't remember one said this truthfully, but nothing is told truthfully actually). what stands behind that? looks i'm the most displeased one here, and i have damned good reasons to be displeased. --- most of what i dont' understand is - the players like the elite content, (and it's certainly no problem, i know)the players like cockpits, pilots and of course dammit as much as blinking lights as possible.the players like ships which can be personalized. but why don't care about that? who makes the sound? the crowd! but we have (in parts at least) a "core team" that decides over the head of all the rest what is good or not. the problem is... if a player tells me "that looks stupid to me.." or "cool i like that" i take this serious. why can't some act like this to? why counts their imagination more as the imagination of the user/player? isn't that stupid or prob. simple egoism? --- i know in the beginning the style of pioneer was "gernot", of course i was the first modeller who messed with it.and unfortunately i have a very high output, i produce models in series, like a machine (i transscripted the "gyr" in a single day).i know this myself i'm no idiot. but i never dictated, neither style or anything, i like to debate yes.if someone says "couldn't we" or "shouldn't we" that's the proper way to go.i helped anybody to get his ideas into a shape for pioneer.i'm not the one who plays with cheated cards here.i'm not the one who fears competition this much that he has to destroy the work of someone else.vice versa, i made my laurels here with helping in modelling, not with predicting i'm the only one and the best.that's the proper way, to help each other, not to destroy the work of one you dislike, or because you can't stand a competition. but tell me who has helped me?vice versa, they throwed sticks between my legs whenever they could, instead of helping. that with exclusion for your person, for tomm, jj, philly and as well john, you helped me when i asked for, thanks,that's the way how it should be. but should i feel comfortable with the behave of some? --- but again, long sentence, short sense  yep it's gpl and prob. we never find one who dares to mess with the LMR,but we have this opportunity at least. --- further belive me i understand well that most modellers felt uncomfortable with it.especially freelancers like "coolhand" wouldn't have the patience to mess with it, that's obvious. but to the rest of hobbyists i have to say "sad you never dared to, because once you tasted it you won't miss it, i swear""there is nothing that can replace something like the LMR, if you catched once how many doors it can open for you" but whysoever it had to be removed, this was declared since?and by whom? not by me at least, neither i can remember tomm liked to remove it, nah i know he was aware that it's a crux.but i had no problem with it and took it as a challange. but i guess if it was about him, to get matrix animations, "ya, ok i can live with it".but to remove it completely? i don't know...at least me it would have ***** off. apart from that again, nothing can offer this flexibility.but of course if "i don't like cockpits" there must something behind it.either blindness or... --- HEY SAPOG YOU MUST REMEMBER IT their was times the community on elite-games was quite sure that transparent parts won't work with FFED3D. until "gernot the builder" came along and showed them how it can be done,do yours was disppointed with this new opportunity? certainly not!

it's not that i dislike the SGM completely,but i feel it cuts my wings, and that is bad for me. but personally i'm pretty sure, one reason is to get rid of competition, is to get rid of gernot. and if i think about that, it makes me wild, how can one? ONLY competition makes things better, cheating kills us already all, it will cost the world it's breath, i predict that and you know i'm rarely wrong. to see such behave in a opensource project, to cheat to lie and to mobb let's me think if human kind has a chance at all. but i have children, they don't have to get president, but they should have a world worth to live in.not a world ruled by liers and cheaters, who care a shit about their childrens children.who care a shit about their neighbour as long as they get wealthy themself, even if it costs the blood of their own brother. to see all such signs even here, makes me wild yes, believe me. sometimes as wild that i would like to kill all humankind only for their blindness. "if I had my way, i would tear this whole building down" furtuantly i cut my hair off... "with cigi in mouth" actually not, but i pased the planes you see in the backround in this way, while they was refueling "are you nuts?" i thought, "well you wouldn't have time to notice it"

You do realise that none of these decisions were taken to annoy you? It was totally separate. You're models are still in the old releases, and always will be. We had to make decisions about the future of Pioneer, using SGModel so that others stand a chance of using it, now we've had to decide to remove the Frontier content from the core distribution for reasons that are outside of this project. At no time did anyone think: "hmm, this will really annoy Gernot so lets do it!", mostly I've just hoped you'd adapt and benefit from it because none of it has been done to annoy anyone but we knew that some decisions would do. What motivated us has been discussed to death above:Uncertain legal stance due to the IP,a real desire to make Pioneer a legally safe base to build other games upon (Paragon for example),a desire to make it a worthy game in it's own right,and a desire not to be treading on the IP for Elite:Dangerous which no-one knew was going to exist.To be clear Frontier Developments have been awesome but it is their IP, it is being actively developed in a title that they've secured a lot of money to fund, and finally just to hammer the point home it is their IP, not ours.When old IP's are resurrected the fan projects that use them often get cease and desist letters telling them to stop using that IP. We preempted that by contacting Frontier directly and they've been really happy and helpful with us, I think that OOLite and FFED3D will probably be fine in fact too. However we don't need to use someone else's IP, we can make a game, in fact we do already have a game, that can exist independently - that will never have to worry about IP issues in the future and with all the other changes going on right now it's the decision that makes the most sense for Pioneer and anyone forking the engine. You and everyone else can model things other than those from Frontier/Elite can't you? Yes you can because you've shown us other models in the past. As for the other objections, that's simply us trying to keep the core version of Pioneer light and simple. I.e; a smaller download with less bugs and art issues for us to deal with. It's not a decree that you cannot have cockpits it's that we'd prefer it if you did models for Pioneer without them, and then if you want others to see those cockpits then make them available as a mod because they add complexity to the workload and that takes more time from us getting features made and bugs fixed. That's partly because when you show a model with a pilot we get requests for in cockpit views. That's something that I'd really like to add actually but there are MASSIVE problems with it, the main one is that we'd need to supply high detail cockpit models & textures, change some rendering, rework the camera and do numerous other things which is more time than the entire team combined has to give :(So yeah I'd love it, I'd like to support the Occulus Rift when it launches and other cool stuff, in fact there's a long list of cool stuff but there just isn't enough time.Then of course there's the scaling issues, the pilots 30ft tall, the missiles change size, the wheels/feet stick through the ground, etc. So you've also just acknowledged that we couldn't get other modellers because of LMR, and it had massive rendering problems and that you had to hack around them in Lua, and it rendered slower and stopped us expanding the game... but you'd still like it to be there. Well, no, it's been a massive problem and stopped people from making Pioneer better. Sure it was an idea at the time, you try ideas, you try and improve them but eventually you just have to ask if it's a good idea at all?The answer with LMR is no, so it's gone. Despite that RobN spent a lot of time adding the ability to export the LMR models, I have them all dumped to my HDD at home in fact. It revealed huge problems with them that I hadn't even realised were in them but aside from that we spent those weeks of time and effort for you and the others who like LMR. Just to be clear that was ROBN who did it for YOU. I don't even know if you guys have even tried it despite all that effort we made (I helped a bit too). Instead you've gone off on a rant against him directly. That's whats annoyed me more than anything.

I'm taking a break from the forums for a few days/week.It's just burnt me out.

Fluffy, you have made me mourn. It is true, RobN is the grandfather of Heidy.

listen fluffyfreak this fact Then of course there's the scaling issues, the pilots 30ft tall, the missiles change size, the wheels/feet stick through the ground, etc. is neither my fault, i planned even the old scripted pilot, in the proper size, no question not 30ft tall, i'm no idiot. someone scaled the eagle in a lumpy way up, logically if i double the size of the ship and didn't do something to the scale of the pilot he's doubled in size.i told that often that it's wrong, that the eagle doesn't have to be doubled in size compared to the original.but someone else decided and exactly this is what i mean by "destroyed" amongst other unsensible changes. i will give my right arm that all my models was proper scaled, at least before someone else fumbled around at them! the latter, .obj based pilot IS PROPER SIZED and i don't know what that means 30 ft tall, that's not true, i no case. -- but anyone can make this proof himself but yeah the one who destroyed my models will do everything to denie that he's responsible for destroying my work and now it looks as i would be a idiot.that he's responsible for a complete messed up scale in pioneer and no one is sure now if we have meters or feet. no dammit fingers feet or tentacles lenghts, uniform french METER! if something IS scaled totally wrong then it's the skyscrapers, one floor is 8-9 meters and that's beyond any reasonability. french METERS, not tentacle lengths  sorry missiles change size? show me before you say such, none of my missiles i placed is scaled wrong, the size is uniform 4 meters length. = and if you see something like, model_scale = 1.5...missile(v(pos),scale/model_scale) is that wrong? certainly not! it keeps the 4 meter long original 1:1 missile 4meters on a 1.5 upscaled model. i'm not brillant in maths, but this is clear as water. but exactly here we have the point/error of the giant pilot, doubled the size of the ship left the pilot in original size means ->pilot is doublewhat would help? model scale 2x -> pilot scale 0.5 but i know i'm only a uneducated idiot... --- but if one usensitively changed it, it's not my fault, point with the finger on him not on me! feet/wheels stick through the ground? evidences please not accusations! that's really mean fluffyfreak, i didn't expected such accusations from you, but maybe you are simply desinformed by the one who killed MY WORK! HE's wrong NOT ME! he's wrong in all extensions ,lies, cheats, alters models to let them look shitty! not my fault if he plays unfair

Hi folks Thought I would add a few comments here for what they are worth. Please, lets keep cool heads here. :girlimpossible: @ The Core Team Yes I too am a bit sad to see the Elite content go, it will always be part of Pioneer's history, it's roots if you will, but I understand why it was done. Improvements and advancements can sometimes be painful but necessary for the good of the project as a whole. Yes it is sad, but it is also an opportunity to take Pioneer in new and exciting directions and it is great that Frontier themselves have been supportive of the project, about time in my view. I have said this on the Frontier forum before and I am going to say it again, without the presence of Oolite, FFE3D and Pioneer, Frontier Developments would have had a much harder time getting their project funded. Those games kept the idea of a new Elite game going as evidenced by the support I've seen from so many on the forum who play those games on a regular basis. My guess is that many of the things we see in Pioneer, Oolite and FFE3D, how certain problems were overcome, might well even help Frontier (along the road) in some of the aspects in developing Elite Dangerous itself. David himself knows how important the Elite community is to making this new game happen and the open source communities have a role here in my view by actually showing them new things in operation. Just off the top of my head: with Oolite the sheer depth of the game via the use of OXPs, with FFE3D, how the basic code of the original game can be upgraded and improved upon and finally with Pioneer, the planetary landing models and how procedural content is generated and put into the game itself. To be honest all the the games do much, much more of course, but the inspiration they must give to the Frontier devs must be worth some recognition. @ GernotYour ships have been, are and will continue to be amazing. I really hope you will keep making them. You have always been one of the most prolific contributors to the project and the idea of a Pioneer without your models in it, even if they are non Elite ones, would be very sad to my eyes. So please keep contributing Gernot. Make a new set of core ships perhaps? Let your imagination run wild Gernot! :girlcrazy: Some of the models you did in the past had a wonderful retro style to them and I for one would really miss your input into the project. As for your lovely Elite ships I still fly nothing else in Pioneer but that wonderful Sidewinder model you made. :girlinlove: If the only way to do that from now on is via a mod pack, is that so bad? To close, sorry for that rant folks but I hate to see conflict especially so between people who have so much more in common than they have differences. I love Pioneer and I want to see it go on and on to new things but at the same time, acknowledge it's roots too. Thats why I hope Gernot (and others) will keep on updating the Elite models and have them available as an add-on. :girlsmile:

really this is unfair, you can say about me i'm a loud mouth, yes i ami'm unpleasing, yes sometimesi'm a egoist, yes in certain fields of my interestsi'm agressive, yep, like a acid pit  BUT to tell that my stuff is modeled that bad is mean, because it's not truemarcel knows,walterar knows,tourist knows,many other i guess know this to. because they kept their ships updated with the proper corrected models by me. but if one willingly destroys it only to let me look shitty... make your own thoughts please the whole up and downscaling thing has brought me to a quite clever solution.and actually most of my LMR models you can scale to the size you likeBUT pilot, missiles, and all else what has a fixed scale wil keep the scale.i even altered the pilot a little for this and center is now between the hands, why?thus you can size the ship up or down, pilot keeps scale AND position, hands always on the board. but yeah, i'm a idiot who must be faught with all kinds of mobbing and cheating. some could really take profit of my experience,but i guess they decided to accuse and untermine, do you think i'm wiling to share knowledge with one that accuses me?with one that has willingly destroyed my work? tell me what would you do with someone like that? take him as a friend or rather as a foe? to me he's foe nr.1, he destroyed my work to make it look shitty. he better takes care never to meet me. BUT YEAH YOU HAVE A CHANCE evidences not accusations and i will step back and you will never hear of me.i can say this with no fear, because i know my models was in good shape before he layed his clumsy hand on them.

to me he's foe nr.1, he destroyed my work to make it look shitty.You say "he" a lot, but you never provide a name. Lets be clear - are you talking about me?evidences not accusations and i will step back and you will never hear of me.Evidence goes both ways. Show me places where I called you names, where I destroyed your work, where I misrepresented you, where I lied, etc and I'll be the first to apologise.Otherwise, cut it out. Personal attacks and threats of violence get you nowhere.