SpaceSimCentral

Geraldine wrote:


Darkone wrote:
What X series needs is a procedurally generated universe to make it infinite
This comes back to my earlier point. Egosoft could learn a lot from David Braben, if they "helped out" in the development of Elite IV. Has any other game managed to do a procedurally generated universe besides the Elite series?
Off hand I think AD astra not sure but I think Elite Starfighter,Celestia and Noctis do as well.Can't remenber if Scratt said if Arc Nebula uses it.Theres probably more,have a look through the links.You know calling the Xgames a 21st century Elite is not a bad discription of the games,after all I would say that the xgames weren't any better than a 25 year game.

PINBACK wrote:
You know calling the Xgames a 21st century Elite is not a bad discription of the games,after all I would say that the xgames weren't any better than a 25 year game.
Your just too bad Pinback!

Geraldine wrote:
Your just too bad Pinback!
I know I think it because over the years I noticed that every time anyone mentions Elite on the x forum,the xgame fanboys go bananas.

I had better stay away from their forum then! Someone on the Frontier Forum said the same thing, dont mention the "E" word! I do hope though that Egosoft can keep on improving their games.

It will be interesting to see what they do,but Iam not expecting any thing revolutionary from them.

Darkone wrote:
What X series needs is a procedurally generated universe to make it infinite
Do you see what you did there? You went and hit the nail right on the head.Yes I think procedural generation for the galaxy and multicore support would be X-treme :)I don't think it would need to be infinite though, just about twice as big as TC but with a randomly generated galaxy on each start.Some real distances and sector sizes would be nice too. In all the X-games I thought the sector sizes and speed of the ships was a downer for me. Flying 70mph in a 2km spaceship is rediculous.

Dump the jumpgate as well they just don't work with more than 100 systems.

PINBACK wrote:
Dump the jumpgate as well they just don't work with more than 100 systems.
Too right Pinback, having jump gates where there is access to hyperdrive technology is a bit like using the bus while you have your own car sitting there. Jumpgates are obsolete and detract from the freedom that interstellar travel should have. In an ideal situation, you should be able to point your ship at any star and go there in no predefined way. Even in Babylon 5, were jumpgates played an important role in the storyline, there were ships that didn't need them. In a game situation,the only use I could see for them would be to access a multi player arena, were the space would have to be predefined. Although you could still nominate certain systems within a galaxy specifically for this purpose and still use hyperdrives for access. I am really scraping the barrel here trying to think of a use for them. One last idea would be to access add-ons or expansion packs, but any decent developer should be able to seamlessly integrate this into the base game. So the case for jumpgates is not really worth the bother in my view.

Geraldine wrote:
Too right Pinback, having jump gates where there is access to hyperdrive technology is a bit like using the bus while you have your own car sitting there.
I always thought about it in a way that using hyperdrive in small range makes the jumpgate obsolete. But if you travel long distances, then a jumpgate is much better, because (as far as I know, but I could be wrong) jumpgates work like doors - you step in one side and step out of the other, whilst with hyperdive, you have to travel a lot to make the same distance....but I could be wrong. So IMO jumpgates can be useful even in a universe where you have hyperdrives. Like Supergates in X.

Empyrean wrote:
I always thought about it in a way that using hyperdrive in small range makes the jumpgate obsolete. But if you travel long distances, then a jumpgate is much better, because (as far as I know, but I could be wrong) jumpgates work like doors - you step in one side and step out of the other, whilst with hyperdive, you have to travel a lot to make the same distance....but I could be wrong. So IMO jumpgates can be useful even in a universe where you have hyperdrives. Like Supergates in X.
Hi EmpyreanIf you are taking about a pre-set universe (were each star system has been carefully designed), like you see in the X games, then yes having jumpgates can be used to get around, the universe is known by it's developers from back to front because they have created every single one of star systems in it, planets and all. That's all well and good. However, as Pinback was pointing out, if you have a much larger universe or infinite even, like for example, the Elite series, jumpgates would not be practical due to the amount of possible destinations you have. For example in Frontier Elite 2, there was 100,000,000,000 (had to dig out my original boxed Amiga version for that number ) possible star systems you could visit. The difficulties involved in creating those star systems is challenging enough, to build a jumpgate system into that as well, in that each and every one of those star systems would have it's own jumpgate would be impractical.So the real question is what sort of universe model do you prefer; a finite pre-set model with an individually code-able amount of star systems (X games), or a procedurally generated universe (Elite games). Which is magnitudes larger, but relies on complex mathematical equations to generate each of the stars you can visit. Now I am not saying that creating a jumpgate network in an infinite universe would be impossible, but at the very least it would be shockingly difficult. As for how hyperdrives work, well that's dependent on what the game developer decides. Certainly it is possible to make them work as you said like a door. The ones in the Elite games worked that way. Travel was instantaneous, although the game clock could advance by days before you appeared at your destination, for you in your ship it was done in an instant. This could be altered by having a bigger hyperdrive vs a smaller ship, which would shorten the game time between jumps. It's got to be pointed out here that once you arrived at you destination, you would still have a realistic sized solar system to transverse. In the X games, solar systems were shrunk to a fraction of their realistic size.To finish, I would say it really depends on the kind of space sim you like, less vs more realistic universe models, from the solar system level, right up to the galactic level and of course how much fun it is to play. Some like their space sims to be hardcore, others less so.Hope that helps!

Geraldine wrote:
Hi Empyrean
Hi
Geraldine wrote:
However, as Pinback was pointing out, if you have a much larger universe or infinite even, like for example, the Elite series, jumpgates would not be practical due to the amount of possible destinations you have. For example in Frontier Elite 2, there was 100,000,000,000 (had to dig out my original boxed Amiga version for that number ) possible star systems you could visit. The difficulties involved in creating those star systems is challenging enough, to build a jumpgate system into that as well, in that each and every one of those star systems would have it's own jumpgate would be impractical.
Pity I never got to play Elite True that in a universe as big as that, making jumpgates in every system would require a computer as big as Earth. But if (for example) 10.000.000 star systems would make up 1 sector, then there would be "only" 10.000 jumpgates to connect those sectors, which would make travelling much more easier between the 1st and the 100.000.000.000th star system.
Geraldine wrote:
As for how hyperdrives work, well that's dependent on what the game developer decides. Certainly it is possible to make them work as you said like a door. The ones in the Elite games worked that way. Travel was instantaneous, although the game clock could advance by days before you appeared at your destination, for you in your ship it was done in an instant

and

Geraldine wrote:
I would say it really depends on the kind of space sim you like, less vs more realistic universe models
True. But it also depends on what you mean by "realistic" If you mean "only" the universe as realistic, then jumpgates could be obsolete. But IMO I like it when time is realistic too, and not just a "jump in the games clock" (that's why I never used SETA in X ), and (I admit) that would make travelling looooooooong distances a pain

Empyrean wrote:
Pity I never got to play Elite
What's stopping you? Head over to the download section of this very site! Darkone has kindly provided Frontier First Encounters Elite 3 (FFE3D) for you to download. It has the same universe model as Elite 2. You can get the package in one big download or in two parts if your connection (like mine) struggles with large files. Try it out and see what you think. Here is a link:http://www.spacesimcentral.com/downloads.php?cat=37&sort_by=0&order=ASC&start=30I should point out that this version has been extensively re-worked to update the graphics and many people are busy making new models for it, including a pretty new panel for the cockpit. Might be a good idea to track down a manual too. I think Darkone has made one available. Remember too that this game uses a Newtonian flight model which takes time to master, but trust me, stick with it! Also there is seamless planet landings too! If you hit any problems running it, there is loads of helpful advice on this forum or at the Frontier forum, located here:http://forums.frontier.co.uk/index.phpOr the Frontier Astro site located here:http://www.frontierastro.co.uk/Also, (almost done promise!) there is an editor called Buffet which can alter hyperspace ranges of the ships, plus a load of other things through an easy to use interface, but at present it is not compatible with the re-worked FFE3D. However a new better version is due very soon. So watch out for that. The Frontier Astro site will likely have have this or perhaps Darkone will make it available.Finally if you would like to try an updated open source version of the original Elite (called Oolite), the latest version is here:http://developer.berlios.de/project/showfiles.php?group_id=3577&release_id=16750There are tons of add-ons for this called OXPs. Here is a good place to starthttp://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/OXPOolite uses a different flight model, a smaller universe (still over 2000 plus systems though) and also has planetary landings via an OXP add-on, try both and see which you prefer.Have fun!

Geraldine wrote:
What's stopping you?
Well, this time nothing Thanks! Will try them out :)Anyway, for a bit of On Topic:I wouldn't mind if Egosoft made another X. Sure, they sold us (almost) the same thing 3 times, only with a few changes and better graphics, but I liked it (TC had major changes, which - I admit - I didn't like. XTM was a great mod as long as it was OPTIONAL, and not the game itself IMO they should have don all that in another game - see examples below...). Or, if they'd want to stay in the X-Universe, they could make a prequel like about the "Xenon Conflict" or some other war. Maybe telling a story about another colony of Earth, or (lets say) a few ships didn't go with Nathan and formed a new race somewhere else. Certainly, the universe Egosoft made is big enough for other games - as long as they stay within the spacesim genre

Empyrean wrote:
Well, this time nothing Thanks! Will try them out
No worries, anyways like you said, back on topic. Yes they could expand of some of the loose ends and a pre-equal to the original X might be a good start. But have not Egosoft came out and said they will not make anymore X games? Perhaps they feel they have taken the series as far as they can, but who knows? Perhaps if there is enough pressure from the fans, they might be encouraged to do a re-think. Could be a good long wait though, look at the fan pressure for the likes of Homeworld 3, A new Wing Commander game and Elite IV. Lots of people want these, but so far little or no word from the respective developers. I wouldn't under-estimate fan pressure though. My advice is to keep chipping away; a game franchise is only dead when people stop talking about it.

Geraldine wrote:
No worries, anyways like you said, back on topic. Yes they could expand of some of the loose ends and a pre-equal to the original X might be a good start. But have not Egosoft came out and said they will not make anymore X games?
True. But they also said (on the forum) that they wont necessarily leave the universe itself. And as Bernd said in an interview about X3TC: "X-Online is our long term goal" (note to self: keep important downloaded videos in a file named DO NOT DELETE!...and I need to get a faster net-connection). Anyway, the vid with Bernd is on EgoSofts X3TC blog , and (I'll admit) that one sentence that he said is the last straw that keeps me waiting for an X-Online. So I think they didn't quite decide it themselves back than, yet alone us. But I hope they'll anounce something now, as it is time for it
Geraldine wrote:
look at the fan pressure for the likes of Homeworld 3, A new Wing Commander game and Elite IV. Lots of people want these, but so far little or no word from the respective developers.
True, But the devs of HW and WC stood on several feet, whilst EgoSoft can only rely on the X-Universe. And as long as it makes profit, I doubt they'll leave it. I'm not saying that I don't want a new universe from them, but it could be risky for them.

Empyrean wrote:
True, But the devs of HW and WC stood on several feet, whilst EgoSoft can only rely on the X-Universe. And as long as it makes profit, I doubt they'll leave it. I'm not saying that I don't want a new universe from them, but it could be risky for them.
And it could also be their undoing. Putting all your eggs into one basket can be risky. As a company, Egosoft should diversify into other game markets as this could give them the extra feet, the extra experience to keep improving their games. Anyways, yes watched the video, so some hope for the future then.

If i were them, i'd figure out how to make the most $$$ of their huge investment. Read : make the core engine work on consoles, and sort out their user interface problem at the same time. Consoles pretty much force one to rethink the UI strategy.

Think that would be a HUGE undertaking for Egosoft to dumb down their interface. Personally I wouldn't mind a more simplified control method because I constantly forget key commands. But with there only being 8 buttons on controllers they might some challenges. But I think they would make money for the effort.

Darkone wrote:
Think that would be a HUGE undertaking for Egosoft to dumb down their interface. Personally I wouldn't mind a more simplified control method because I constantly forget key commands. But with there only being 8 buttons on controllers they might some challenges. But I think they would make money for the effort.
Gains would be proportional with the investment.TBH, i dont remember _any_ sim type of game that would have made a transition from a 100+ controls to something more reasonable without really killing the game.But on the other hand, for most of them there are only a handful of time-critical controls that you need to be able to reach, and everything else could be deferred to well designed dashboards or menus. Or even be optionally voice activated.RPG games have picked up this "multiple management screens" or dashboards paradigm to configure different aspects of your character, i dont see why it wouldn't work for a sim, if carefully thought out and designed.

If any game could get away with a more simplified control method it would be X series of games. Because since they are not a twitch based combat system you could put all the features mainly in window/menu systems you bring up with the directional pad and use all the rest of the controls for strictly piloting your ship.