SpaceSimCentral

potsmoke66 wrote:
first, i would like to see unique ship designs in pioneer, they could lean on frontier but not exactly covering them
Pretty much my feeling about the game is Pioneer should strive for its own look and feel and just not ape what was in Frointier.

Geraldine wrote:
Yes, I like that Potsmoke. I really think that red scratched texture really suits it. Shows how it would realistically look after many re-entries. Nice work! Could anything be done though about the registration numbers? They spoil its look.
I think your referring to my ship? If so then thanks The reg entries can easily be removed. They are only there as that picture is an old one taken from FFED3D, and since Pioneer doesn't have the reg entries (I think) then they won't show.BTW Potsmoke66, I haven't actually imported my ship to Pioneer yet, its still in FFED3D format.. I might even have the original 3Dsmax file somewhere. So any tips you have for porting it over would be great. Will the game read a model made for FFED3D do you think?
potsmoke66 wrote:
well the Lanner, a nice transporter, what you think if i would rebuild it from the original ingame model used in ffe, it could be done. textures can be made (in near future, i guess).
Yes that can be done, I had a play around a while back at re-using the original models. In fact that Red Wyvern Explorer there uses the original model from FFE. Its just been changed a lot.Heres what I mean:

s20dan wrote:
I think your referring to my ship?
Oops! Sorry S20dan, it's just that Potsmoke has been so busy making his models, I thought it was his. So please accept my apology Nice model all the same

Oh its really no problem Just glad someone thinks the model is good enough for use :)Potsmoke, do you think you could give me a few pointers with converting my model? The only copy I have is a .x format, I have lost the original object file.

here we go,numero uno, why no reg#, i like much, replacing to correct or new positions, sizes in ffed3d is possible, with some braintwist. no, yes, reg# in pioneer are possible, even more then that since calling function for such is "easy", that goes to ffed3d to, i showed you once a example, truely you can have a reg#, a let's say personal name for the ship (or the general ship type, you can request from string table), and if you really like to get it to the top, your comandr (savegame) name under the rustrum (if there's one), i guess number of kills would be possible to ok, that would need some extra time and extra investigations to FFE of me, but possible. additionally it's hard, really hard to work on both FFED3D and Pioneer, commanders mind is allready twisted and the engine's halfways wrecked by now, could need some service in next dry dock. (i lost a harddrive, it's true, and by now all photos of me and every little tidbit i downloadet in the past 6 months is lost so far, stupid me don't tell me i should have... yes i should but dvd' drives was dismounted since i don't know and do i have to tell you what was behind "security relevant update", now you will understand my angry post of last week, no joke drives was physically ok, also present drivers in registry bur cancelled by windows, what a .......... i guess this guy should never meet me in the dark.....)to remove (no, no don't do it ) it's a easy task, you will only have to find the call for the reg# in FFED3D of the certain type of ship and blank that out with 0xFFFF. and on many ships they even never appear without a good hack (e.g. cobra mk3) or are simply covered by the model (e.g. coolhands viper).numero dueconverting from .x to .obj, no big deal, only that you will lose the animations of the landing gear, but that doesn't matters anyway, because you will have to write a complete new one in pioneer (task's not finished yet by me, but allready i know how to).just in case that your program doesn't support wavefront .obj format use 3DWin5 to convert it comes with Rheingold3D from TB-software, but can be downloadet there separately.general stuff how to convert i posted in "modeling for pioneer", but i will repeat the basic's here; measurement of ships (i guess that's important in first place) is 87 * 10 percent of the .x model for ffed3d you used. "erm what 87 * 10?" yes, use 87% of original in your cad prog. multiply the size in the .lua script by ten, that works best, imho, else the models get to big in the cad to work with, especially medium to big ships, from on the ASP and upwards, because of the fogging some programs have, 870% is a bit gigantic usually.this will result in a perfect pioneer metric scale and it will give you additionally the advantege to position the thrusters, position lights and other optional sub models, in a scale compliant to pioneers vectors (1 integer vector = 1 meter), so you can "count" the vec's distances on your model if you underlay a 10:1 grid, you can use for shure 1:10 to make the hundredth parts visible, to get proper vectors in 1cm range e.g. 1.73 which stands for 1meter 73 centimeters, but respect allways your scale you used also 1:10 perhaps, on your model it is then....right, 0.173 steps of a 1:1 grid.i hope i didn't calculated anything wrong models for pioneer are best split to several parts, because you will have to (can) specify in the lua script, various materials for them, such as blendet colors, variable colors, glossy to matte parts in all shades or even transparency if needet, has to be assigned this way, sounds complicated at first, but for car modelers like me a common thing. texture use newly is possible, a big thanks tomm he solved that very quickly. but we will have to wait for a working new alpha2 (it's in the boxes, ready to race). you can write the lua allready for texture use, usage is explained in pioneers wiki, i guess , but i know it needs some extra explanations (for me to and some trys, else the results will be unpredictable i guess) after all it wont be like modeling -> exporting -> voila, like for FFED3D.even if i guess there is a possibility to do the job halfways automated within Blender (good prog., no best imho), but someone will have to write a export python script for it, a similar one i have seen allready. if i find the page again and find enough courage to ask that developer, who knows?numero trei promise i will post a complete example lua script with explanations to every step, as soon as i have everything in a good shape and texture use is supported by alpha2, this goes also to the work with complete scripted models, which i personally prefere by now, because i told you, it gives pioneer a special Frontier, no Pioneer charm , man im thirsty now, hand me a beer or two.

s20dan, you used subsurface scattering to smooth your models right?hint, for pioneer, normals tuning is possible to but i still need some more experience with it, but for FFED3D i can only recommend a good normals tuning, this will reduce the poly count drastically, optically in the game it's the same smooth borders.another thing you can do to keep a good framerate in pioneer is the use of lod (level of detail), also for "solid" models, but you will have to build a model for each lod you specify. generally this is why i love the scripted models so much, the lod controls fully the amount of polys used for the "planes" or primitives you use. ends up in high detailed models when close, low detailed when far. just like, yes good old frontier, only better!.oh before i forgot, to get a grip to how models are build in pioneer:
Code:
define_model('blob', {info = {bounding_radius=8,materials={'blue'}},static = function(lod)set_material("blue", 0,0,1,1)use_material("blue")cylinder(16, v(-5,0,0), v(-5,5,0), v(1,0,0), 1.0)text("blob_static()", v(-5,-2,0), v(0,0,1), v(1,0,0), 0.5)xref_thruster(v(5,0,0), v(0,0,-1), 10)xref_thruster(v(5,0,0), v(0,0,1), 10)xref_thruster(v(5,0,0), v(0,1,0), 5)xref_thruster(v(5,0,0), v(0,-1,0), 5)thruster(v(5,0,-5), v(1,0,0), 5, true)thruster(v(5,0,5), v(1,0,0), 5, true)thruster(v(-5,0,-5), v(-1,0,0), 5, true)thruster(v(-5,0,5), v(-1,0,0), 5, true)text("HELLO FROM BLOB", v(0,0,0), v(0,0,1), v(1,0,0), 10.0)end})poo = 0define_model('test', {info = {lod_pixels={30,60,100,0},bounding_radius = 10.0,tags = {'building', 'turd'},materials = {'red', 'shinyred'}},static = function (lod)set_material("red", 1,0,0,1)set_material("shinyred", 1,0,0,1, 1,1,1,50)use_material("red")xref_flat(16, v(0,0,1),{v(4,0,0)}, -- straight line bit{v(4.5,-0.5,0),v(5,0,0)}, -- quadric bezier bit{v(5,0.5,0),v(4,0,0),v(4,1,0)}, -- cubic bezier bit{v(3,0.5,0)}, -- straight line bit{v(3,0.3,0)} -- etc)zbias(1, v(0,5,0), v(0,0,1))geomflag(0x8000)text("LOD: " .. tostring(lod), v(0,5,0), v(0,0,1), v(1,1,0):norm(), 1.0)geomflag(0)zbias(0)use_material("red")for i = 1,10 dotapered_cylinder(lod*4, v(i,0,0), v(i+1,0,0),v(0,1,0), math.abs(noise(5*i,0,0))+1,math.abs(noise(5*(i+1),0,0))+1)enduse_material("shinyred")xref_circle(9, v(4,5,0), v(0,0,1), v(1,0,0), 1.0)tri(v(12,3,0),v(13,3,0), v(12,4,0))xref_tri(v(13,3,0),v(14,3,0), v(13,4,0))xref_quad(v(6,6,0), v(7,6,0), v(7,7,0),v(6,7,0))--[[xref_cubic_bezier_tri(32, v(0,0,0), v(1,0,0), v(2,0,0), v(3,0,0),v(0,-1,0), v(1,-1,3), v(3,-1,0),v(0,-2,0), v(2,-2,0),v(0,-3,0))--]]---[[xref_quadric_bezier_tri(16, v(0,0,0), v(1,0,0), v(2,0,0),v(0,-1,0), v(1,-1,2),v(0,-2,0))--]]--[[geomflag(0x8000)xref_quadric_bezier_quad(16, 16,v(0,0,0), v(1,-1,0), v(2,0,0),v(-1,1,0), v(1,1,8), v(3,1,0),v(0,2,0), v(1,3,0), v(2,2,0))--]]--[[xref_cubic_bezier_quad(32, 32,v(0,0,0), v(1,0,0), v(2,0,0), v(3,0,0),v(0,1,0), v(1,1,5), v(2,1,0), v(3,1,0),v(0,2,0), v(1,2,0), v(2,2,0), v(3,2,0),v(0,4,0), v(1,4,0), v(1,4,0), v(1,3,0))--]]--[[extrusion(v(0,0,0), v(0,0,-5), v(0,1,0), 1.0,v(1,0,0), v(0.5, 0.8, 0), v(0,1,0), v(-0.5,0.8,0), v(-1,0,0),v(0,-0.5,0))--]]end,dynamic = function(lod)poo = poo + 0.005set_material("red", math.sin(poo)*math.sin(poo), 0.5, 0.5, 1)use_material("red")xref_cylinder(16, v(-8,0,0), v(-8,5,0), v(1,0,0), math.abs(math.sin(poo)))circle(9, v(5*math.sin(poo),5*math.cos(poo),0), v(0,0,1), v(1,0,0), 1.0)local ang = 2*math.pi*get_arg(0)--call_model("blob", v(0,0,-20), v(1,0,0), v(1,1,0),1.0)billboard('smoke.png', 5, v(.5,.5,1), { v(0,0,0), v(10,3,0) })end})
it's tomm's demo model, if you have still have a download of pioneer alpha1 containing the modelviwer, place this to a copy of it, and rename "models.lua" to "whatever.lua" name this simply "models.lua". start command console and execute e.g. or it gives you an idea how lua scripts are used in pioneer for models (its in the original models.lua but it can't be called because it's underneeth the general call for "any .lua" in data\models\mods drawer which halts modelviewer)i do the same procedure for any of my scripted models to check them and i did to checkout tomm's models, but load_obj is not supported so far, also modelviewer can't look recursively for any models in mods drawer it loads only from models.lua placed in data\models folder, anything else terminates the program (another possibility is to rem ( -- , "two dashes in front of line") the lines for the call of load_lua data\models\mods in original model.lua). open lua scripts best with wordpad but i guess that is offens.hint,if you have any problems with the syntax (really it can cost you nerves to find a forgotten comma or bracket) use luaedit.it will show you such syntax errors (run script/check syntax, pulldown) and you dont have to open allways the "stdout" or "stderr" file and count the lines in wordpad to find the certain missmatching type if it's been reported there at all.i'm still thirsty

Thanks a lot for that info. Losing the animation is no problem, as this was my first model and I didn't bother to make one ;)Yes those models just used a subsurf division (I think) maybe Scatter script in Blender, then I exported them to 3dsmax to change the shape a bit then to optimize and reduce number of polys.I followed your instructions with the model viewer, and it does make some sense to me now. It looks like a right load of work to make a model Just been playing around trying to make a model.. this is hard! I'll have to make an accurate sketch like you suggested earlier.

like me, still a lot to learni guess over the years i got lazy do a nice skin, i guess it's because i started with

if you own XWA you might find this interesting[url]http://www.darksaber.pnma.co.uk/[/url]

just to make you some appetite[attachment=118:pb-xwa 01.jpg][attachment=119:pb-xwa 02.jpg]it's the "Preybird" from Star Wars X-Wing Alliance.the original model has of course no pilot and cockpit, those i get from the "B-Wing" model of the same game.PB-XWA "Falcon", for Pioneer includes moveable wings for landing/flight mode and all the rest of needet animations.it will be completed soon, maybe a FFED3D version will follow, because to setup pioneers model and animation needs much more time, conversion to model.x will be "easy" then.it will be the base for a tutorial how to fully convert a (XWA) model to Pioneer, using most possibilities that Pioneer offers so far (alpha1), the script for it will be explained in every command so even a nube understands whatfor each command is.be warned it's a somewhat longer script and looks confusing at first, but it's needet for such a complex model and it illustrates as well the usage of many different functions (rotate, transform, materials, labels, lod use).

if there are models ready to use for your FFED3D, Pioneer or whatever Space Sim with easy to exchange models,you will find them in Star Wars X-Wing Alliance, the models are somewhat lo-poly but exactly right for a game.the typical SW looking skins compensate the lack of details which can be added easy afterwards.if you own the game (xwa) you got a deep well of models to use (some at least ), the models can be converted to 3ds with following tools for which i googled i don't know how long a few month's ago, first i only had a very rough non functionals basic prog. to use and i allready thought it's usless (once i had a 3d converter reading also unknown data, showing almost each mesh if there is one, no tex. uv, but wow, but i lost it years ago, many 5 at least). anyway, i didn't gave up the search and i found a collection of tools to import/export to XWA, and some to create the right settings for a XWA .opt file .this is the gate to XWA models:[url]http://www.darksaber.pnma.co.uk/[/url] is the page to download all the goodies:[url]http://www.darksaber.pnma.co.uk/fileopted.html[/url] you aren't very far away from your first "Mill-Falc" for Pioneer and co. the models are split up in a material for each of the skin bits, lots of fun ahead with your new puzzle.but on the other hand, we want to have a model with many options, so we need a lot of separate objects for pioneer (for ffed3d you will have a single one and a single skin, but as less possibilities to), the "preybird" (PB-XWA) uses 30 of them by now, another 4 - 6 will be addet for the landing gear. a little much you guess, but needet for different materials (you can use 4 color variable materials, if needet) and different levels of detail (lod) need optional parts to, you like to have a nimated wing? triple the use of all!but you can also just scramble all up, and do a quick release for ffed3d, why not.

thanks, but credits goes to lucas-artsit's almost the plain model from XWA, actually i'm fixing the most complicated part of the model, the landing gear

Nice,but I would cut those wing off as the don't look right,or shorten them.

i guess they look as they have to look[attachment=120:preybird_opt.jpg]don't they do, they do don't they? ;)i don't like to change to much on a converted model, except adding things like thrusters and position lights, a pilot maybe or to make some parts animated like the wings or the landing gear, which the originals don't have.ok, i guess the guns are on the wingtips, i placed one in the middle, i guess guns on wingtips so far from each other is hard to target with, except you can control the parallax angle (lock target), so the will hit together on the right distance (like in SW).in the beginning i thought of that, that's also the reason for the in-flight or attack mode position of the wings, but after i discovered a lot of problems with the rear gun setting in pioneer (it didn't works), i left that aside.anyway to fix guns on moveable wings is nearly impossible, because the guns are specified in the main model and will have fixed positions (i'm not shure if they will accept a rotate function, or if it still works when i define each wing as a ship, it doesn't at first few try's, but that could be a problem of how to. i finish the model as it is now, experimental things i will do later).make some suggestions; weight in tonnes 25 overall?, max acceleration?, restrictions to setup, no scoop?pre fitted military drive? no autopilot?, no cargo bay life support? how many missiles to carry, 2?something to fix to, randomly changing skins, because you have in XWA 4 squadrons; red, gold, green & blue, it's not so important, but the model is allready prepared for it.another one, but this is no actual project, just for fun[attachment=121:toscan_opt.jpg]a very close closeup[attachment=122:pb-xwa 04.jpg]Pinback, you own xwa?

progress:i will have to check the thrusters and the decals have to be made bound to reg# instead to time, else they change every 10 - 20 mins. or so.then you will have a new model for pioneer, a small useless one but nevermind.code will be posted with complete explanation to make the script understandable for anyone.

potsmoke66 wrote:
Pinback, you own xwa?
As in the game ,think I have a copy some where.

forget it, i've seen you can do very good models your ownbut am i right, wasn't it you who asked for SW fighters in FFED3D? it's a good source also darksabers page you find many cool remakes of SW models, they are somewhat *easy to convert and doesn't have a to high poly count at least. but you will need XWA (or others of the SW series) to install the models, i guess it's to prevent from stealing them. but there isn't a way to contact him, so i don't mind as long as i own the game.and at least we don't want to make profit of it and for private use they feel ok. if you offer one you just have to give credits to the modeller like usually.again the link, if you missed it: [url]http://www.darksaber.pnma.co.uk/[/url] to convert from/to 3ds and viewers you'll find there to (file archive)Master Qui-Con Marco Antonio MalheirosGeneral Trageton*easy means texture UV is held when converting, models are split into parts per textured material, so for FFED3D you will have to join them all and remap in blender either automated or by hand (to be honest, i did by hand, because i can't made it work automated in a day's work, though it's a "lost" day and in less time i can do by hand).

I'm no modeler or coder but thought me contribute with something.here goes..[url]http://ngplant.sourceforge.net/#overviewanc[/url] ngPlant - Open Source plant modeling package website. I hope it can be used/implemented to work with Pioneer engine.ngPlant is a plant modeling software package. Designers can use interactive tool to create 3D models of different plants and trees. Software developers can use 3D API-independent library to use generated plant models in their 3D applications, or to create plant modeling plugins for different 3D modeling tools.

potsmoke66 wrote:
but am i right, wasn't it you who asked for SW fighters in FFED3D? .
Nope was'nt me who asked for the StarWars models.

i guess procedural generated trees/plants wouldn't be a big deal in general, BUT don't forget it needs (alot) processing time.so i guess to use some rather simple models is a better solution, but let's see what's tomm's suggestion.btw, since you can't walk around in Pioneer and i guess it's something that would completely exceed the games task, it isn't very important, more a wish to dream of. after all how long do you look at a planet's surface in the running (final) game? not very long if i remember how to play Frontier. i guess the use of a set of simply modelled plants scattered over the surface, would be fine.but if you just suggest to generate plant's to use for models, i guess blender has that allready implemented (i haven't tried so far). but even the same like above goes to that (keep a eye on processing time). personally i had the idea to create some scripted tree models which will only "pop up" full when your'e on closest lod.apart from that the generated trees, like the ones you showed, look a bit empty to me, it's not easy to create trees that will look natural, imo a simple cone with a applied texture looks as good or even better to me, for a pine e.g.. even to do it like for older games, by the use of 4 transparent planes and a attached texture of a real tree is a good (better) solution to me, but transparency issues of pioneer make this almost impossible transparent bodys have to be closed , i mean a complete sphere cube or any geometrical body, else they start to cutout the models behindi did some (in fact a little arrangement of trees) for my chappel i made, but i used a simply distorted sphere for that, and layed a disordered texture on it, looks not bad imo. i've only made three trees which could be scaled different when called up in the model, it result's in a range of different looking trees for each (larger are more streched or thin, smaller are more wide)i know you can't see the trees very well here but i would have first to install my chappel to new release, before i can make a better screen shot of them.and pinback forget it then, i never asked, i'm sorry :oops:but apart from that, why not some have very good design, foremost the millfalc and who wouldn't like to ride that?