SpaceSimCentral

Brianetta wrote:
That's making the grand assumption that missions will only require engines, cameras and nukes. Lua coders shouldn't have to have the engine modified to support generalized ideas, so it follows that Lua coders should have some mechanism for defining custom equipment and cargo at the very least.
It's not a grand assumption it's experience from previous work. You can often spend weeks rewriting something to be incredibly flexible, to offer up unlimited opportunity, you re-enter all of the existing 200+ items/models/animations/whatevers data and then... 3 new things are added which are used in just 1% of the cases and would have taken 15 minutes for a coder to add. Or worse, the 1 and only way that something is used remains the 1 and only way that something is ever used. I've seen it happen repeatedly and been powerless to stop it before.If someone wants to do it then great, but without a concise and cohesive reason for doing it I don't see what the difference will be. There's a table with 40+ entries which will need to be rewritten to support this new system, for the sake of adding a few more. Adding all of the other military drives only took an hour or two of my time, and a lot of that was doing some maths on a piece of paper to work out the prices. That time is cheap for the amount of reward.So what I see is a working system that is easy to support vs an unknown with limited benefits - more than anything it just feel like the kind of system described above.I guess in principle I agree with the motivation, to drive the definition and creation of ingame objects from data, that would be nice. It's simply that I don't see the benefit in doing so in this case.

UncleBob wrote:


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We're moving away from the general "intercept AI" concept towards allowing ships to make short in-system hyperspace jumps.
Nooooooo!I would really regrett that.
Did you ever play I-War? I quite liked their drive idea, think it was called the LDS or something. It "sliced up space and put it behind you" a bit like a warp drive or some nonsense... but it made it easier to get around in real-time.Not sure I'd like to see it in Pioneer though, part of the fun and gameplay is that things-take-time and you need to plan ahead for them.

It's not time that made us consider in-system jumps. It's the fact that you'd basically never, ever meet anybody. Pirates are already out there, in space. Ever been caught by one? Didn't think so. They can't reach you before you dock, an the only alternative would be for them to to hang around space stations waiting for incoming traders. Like the authorities would stand for that.Frontier got around this by teleporting pirates to your location. Pioneer just might have to do the same thing. At least we let you do it back!

Good point, so how about the I-War third way where you can travel for a limited time, and using generous amounts of fuel perhaps(?), in-system at some high fraction of the speed of light - or warping more accurately.... but can we not call it warping, please, Star Trek is not something I want this particular game associated with!

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Did you ever play I-War? I quite liked their drive idea, think it was called the LDS or something.
I-War is exactly what I was thinking about. I could condone the LDS because you need some mcguffin like that if you don't want to go all the way and include orbital propagation and a gravity simulation, which would clearly have been overkill for the first game, and in the second they pretty much had to go by what the first provided.But since we already have orbital propagation and gravity simulation in pioneer, it would be a sad thing to see the flight model go the way of every other flight model in every other space sim out there. Space just isn't big if you even can jump around inside systems. Well, it would be sad for me, anyways.EDIT: As for pirates, I suppose they would intercept your hyperspace arrival cloud before you arrive at the system. At least that' how I used to assasinate people in FFE.

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But since we already have orbital propagation and gravity simulation in pioneer, it would be a sad thing to see the flight model go the way of every other flight model in every other space sim out there. Space just isn't big if you even can jump around inside systems. Well, it would be sad for me, anyways.
The flight model wouldn't be going away. This would be an extra system with extra costs. Critically, it would not be free and instant travel - there will be costs and risks involved.Consider this scenario: you see a battle happening and want to join, but it would takes days of normal flight to get there, so you decide to jump. The battle is happening perilously close to a planet, so there's a non-zero chance that you could end up too close the the planet and crash, unless you allow your computer to take the time to calculate the jump properly. It will take five minutes, but the battle will be over by then, so maybe you only do a partial calculation and take your chances. Oh, and maybe your shields need a recharge after jump for some reason.Now I don't know which if any of those factors would happen or make sense. My point is that there should be a way to balance it so that normal flight is probably the right choice most of the time, but a short jump may occasionally make some sense. We discussed a fair bit of this in IRC. The log of those discussion is linked from the wiki topic I mentioned.

Perhaps using something like Oolite uses, some form of fuel injection that will burn up your fuel reserves at a massive pace. Also, because you also need to reduce your mass to zero (using some fuel hungary mass adjustment add-on), yet at the same time, travel in normal space, your shields would be stripped bare. This happens because you are exceeding relativistic speeds, so even tiny particles hitting your ship will slowly but surely reduce your shields to zero. Once this happens you must drop out of these "superluminal speeds" or your hull will disintegrate. Doing it this way, you will have more control over the process but also have easy to understand costs for doing it. Also, since it takes such a toll on your ship, you could only do this in short bursts. Doing it all the way from hyperspace jump entry point to planetfall wouldn't feel right in my view.For those interested here is what The Wiki says on FTL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-lightOr perhaps increase the accuracy of the jump engines but with penalties the closer you get to a gravitational reference point, for example, trying to jump to just outside a planetary atmosphere also includes a very high chance of having an exit point beneath the planet's crust! I know this "intercept" issue must be giving you guys some trouble, it's not easy having full-sized solar systems and reconciling that with pirate intercepts, but if you can pull it off, it would be awesome

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Now I don't know which if any of those factors would happen or make sense. My point is that there should be a way to balance it so that normal flight is probably the right choice most of the time, but a short jump may occasionally make some sense.
Okay, you got me back there.

Would someone mind explaining the cargo and fuel scoop. I tried to get close to Sol with the fuel scoop equipped, but ended up TOO close. I also tried to mine Phobos but got chased off by the fuzz. Can mining be done yet?

CreepyStepdad wrote:
Would someone mind explaining the cargo and fuel scoop. I tried to get close to Sol with the fuel scoop equipped, but ended up TOO close. I also tried to mine Phobos but got chased off by the fuzz. Can mining be done yet?
Mine somewhere that doesn't have a base in it! Fuel scooping is safer in a gas giant's atmosphere.

i agree with geraldine on the intercept issue ....i thought the oolite system for getting round was great .......the fuel injection system giving you short range warp capabilitys would take away the need to constantly speed up time just to get places quickly

spike1984 wrote:
i agree with geraldine on the intercept issue ....i thought the oolite system for getting round was great .......the fuel injection system giving you short range warp capabilitys would take away the need to constantly speed up time just to get places quickly
Geraldine's idea of using up fuel to get a speed boost... does it slow down again if you run out of fuel? How?That sort of concept doesn't make sense in a vacuum governed by Newtonian physics. It's not just the huge distances, but the vast differences in velocity that everything has. You don't just have to reach your target; you must also reach your target's velocity.

Sorry Brianetta, I should have fleshed out the idea better. Granted that FTL is impossible for objects with mass, but that was why I suggested a "mass altering device" that would reduce the ship's mass to zero, however it takes a lot of fuel to run this gadget. When your fuel runs out (or if you choose to shut it off), mass returns to the ship, hence you would drop to sub-light speeds again. This gadget is smart though in how it re-applies mass in that it returns you to the same space normal speed you were doing before you engaged it perhaps by actually increasing the original mass of your ship untill equilibrium with your starting speed is attained. Obviously it would also incorporate some form if internal damping to handle the massive Gees involved in changing your velocity.It's only an idea though, my attempt in trying to deal with this tricky intercept problem. It's only now when thinking about it, how difficult this would be for the devs to get right.Whatever method the devs decide upon, I just hope it doesn't involve jumpgates

A mass-reducing device might work kind of well. If hyperspacing works by travelling through a different dimension than our three, then you may be able to put your ship partway into that dimension while what's left of you in the third dimension moves around the system.

Geraldine wrote:
Sorry Brianetta, I should have fleshed out the idea better. Granted that FTL is impossible for objects with mass
Perhaps in real life. In Pioneer, we use Newtonian physics, not Einsteinian physics. There's nothing special about the speed of light.
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When your fuel runs out (or if you choose to shut it off), mass returns to the ship, hence you would drop to sub-light speeds again. This gadget is smart though in how it re-applies mass in that it returns you to the same space normal speed you were doing before you engaged it perhaps by actually increasing the original mass of your ship untill equilibrium with your starting speed is attained. Obviously it would also incorporate some form if internal damping to handle the massive Gees involved in changing your velocity.
See, the problem there is that you move across the system just fine, and might even be at the same place as the guy you're trying to meet. Trouble is, you're still at the velocity you started at, and he almost certainly isn't, so you'd see him continue to coast away from you at whatever speed he's doing. You're still playing catch-up; you still have to spend time matching his velocity, and once you've done that, what a surprise, he's bloody miles away.Jump into Sol and select Earth. Look at your speed relative to Earth - very nearly 30km/s, which is positively belting along. Ships are in a hurry; Earth dawdles along at only 6.28 AU per year. Just reaching them quickly isn't the problem. It's reaching them and staying with them.Any scheme that relies on a temporary speed boost simply won't work, unless your game is like Oolite and everybody knows what 0 m/s means.

Brianetta wrote:
In Pioneer, we use Newtonian physics, not Einsteinian physics. There's nothing special about the speed of light.
Of course, I keep forgetting the Pioneer universe is not Einsteinian Still, its nice to pretend it is!
Brianetta wrote:
See, the problem there is that you move across the system just fine, and might even be at the same place as the guy you're trying to meet. Trouble is, you're still at the velocity you started at, and he almost certainly isn't, so you'd see him continue to coast away from you at whatever speed he's doing. You're still playing catch-up; you still have to spend time matching his velocity, and once you've done that, what a surprise, he's bloody miles away.
Ah, ok now I see what you mean. Hard (15 hour) day at work so I am a little slow Ok then, how about "the gadget" plotting the course and velocity of your intercept according to your target? You could set a small relative velocity differential between yourself and the target by sharing the same reference point. That would drop you out of superluminal speed right on their tail. After that it's all down to piloting skills if you make the kill or not. Conversely, attacking ships could pull the same stunt to intercept you.
Brianetta wrote:
Any scheme that relies on a temporary speed boost simply won't work, unless your game is like Oolite and everybody knows what 0 m/s means.
Yes I agree there is no absolute 0ms with regards to Pioneer as it depends on what your measuring your zero velocity at (the reference point), but for intercepts, you could use the same reference point as the target ship. Once you are close enough, use the gadget to automatically adjust your speed to bring you within striking range at a low speed differential. Remember though, there is costs to doing this because your shield will be weak from travelling at superluminal. So some tactics would need to be employed to enable you to survive this vunerable period until your shields recharge. Thats about it Brianetta, a fudge by any other name I admit, but to be honest I would still like to see what others could come up with. Perhaps there is an even simpler solution, if I could only think of it

Geraldine wrote:
Perhaps there is an even simpler solution, if I could only think of it
Well, there's still the cheating by teleporting...General consensus *seems* to be (and I can't speak for all of the dev team) that since we already have a drive that can make hyperspace wormholes, we should use that rather than invent yet another fictitious technology.

Brianetta wrote:


Geraldine wrote:
Perhaps there is an even simpler solution, if I could only think of it
Well, there's still the cheating by teleporting...General consensus *seems* to be (and I can't speak for all of the dev team) that since we already have a drive that can make hyperspace wormholes, we should use that rather than invent yet another fictitious technology.
Which is effectively cheating by teleporting, but we're just trying to spin a bit of plausibility around it

LMAO .....see .....now my brain just jumped out the back of my head ...........im not a rocket scientist ......nor do i have ANY understanding of newtonian or einsteinian physics (i dont even know the differance im not even gonna pretend to) .......it dosnt bother me in my everyday life so as far as im concerned i dont need to know the differance but the one thing i dont want is to need a degree in engineering to be able to fly a ship ....in my opinion in the future this kind of thing would get passed from father to son ......otherwise how the hell do pirates themselves exist ......cos the only people who would be able to fly in space would be the military and have the training afforded by that way of life ........so their must be some kind of tech that makes this simplernow im being told that the speed of light means nothing .......ok i can handle that ...so as an uneducated moron i can factor that into my thoughtsi also DO have some grasp of the fact that space is the thing thats moving ....but like simon pegg ....i forget this fact easilyso here are my thoughts on this ....... bear with me whilst i make my retarded suggestion in the hope that its not actualy as retarded as it sounds (i dont explain things so good) if faster than light travel dosnt exist ....than the only other explaination as to what a hyperdrive does is dimension shifting ......witchspace ..if you prefer .........so if you can enter witchspace to fly to another system that means that portable wormhole tech exists .....and if that is the case ....than isnt it possible that tech to get an accurate destination would also be required am i rightso its obvious to me that if a ship has said tech already its not actualy cheating .........your already bending the rules to get to a destination as it is ....(because in this model your cheating anyway to just jump to a new place) so its not cheating to bend them a little further and say ..look .....ships have this onboard thing that locks onto a target destination with as much accuracy as it can .........how close it gets you to said destination depends on how old it is (when it was invented .....and when it was last serviced) ....tech for this would obviously get better as time goes on ....so obviously you get some that are more accurate than othersnow how this computer works is ......it uses your ships star charts to lock onto a body and automaticaly puts your speed relative to that body (geting rid of the need to build up to that speed on re-entry ...... it automaticaly boots you out of witchspace at this speed because the witchspace dimention wraps around our own meaning that when you enter you automaticaly appear in every point in our universe at the same time and are theirfore reletive to everything .....its just a case of picking a spot to emerge (or somthing like that .....think infinite improbability drive from hitchikers)mis jumps can still occur because the drive has malfunctioned or is old and does a ...no ..i want to go here .not their thingtheir problem solved .......if you cant come up with a plausible explaination ....than make one up ....because uneducated boneheads like me wont know the differance and at least this way sounds plausible to those that are .....why try to apply rationality to somthing that isnt alreadybasicaly what im saying is ...... your calling teleporting cheating when effectivly its what your already doing in game anyway .......so their is no point holding back ......just work out how to get to planets within a system with that in mind ....you cant have an explaination to everything in life or the fun is lostEDIT .........yeah im probly talking out my arse .....but im just trying to make sure you dont lose sight of things by trying to rationalise everything .......if you want my honest opinion you could use this theory and say that the drive gets less accurate the further away you are ....but within a system its accurate to the point of intercepting ships EDIT 2 ....yeah i just read that back and i know i havent solved the getting from planet to planet problem ........but at least i have tryed to make an explaination to make the teleporting thing seem plausible and not cheating

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Ships will now emerge from hyperspace at a point "close" to the source system (#724)
If I understand this correctly from the alpha16 new features list, then a ship jumping from system a to system b will always emerge into system b in the same area of system b every time. If this is true then pirates would wait in that area for victims to appear. That's what I imagined the 'teleporting' of Frontier pirates was supposed to simulate, and would give them a good chance of intercepting you without intra-system jumps being necessary. That being said, such jumps if implemented should require as much fuel as inter-system jumps to prevent them from being over used, imho. The rationale could be that jumps close to a gravity well would require proportionately more energy.