SpaceSimCentral

RedRiver wrote:
any plans to improve procedurally generated terrain? especially for rocky planets?haven't seen a single crater... not even on asteroids :)also thin atmo planets need more flat or plain like surfaces. keep up the good works!
The procedurally generated terrain uses a noise function rather than mid point displacement, so you don't need to get your hands dirty with how the terrain subdivision algorithm nightmare works in order to make new high functions or colour functions -- you just get surface position as input and return a height or a colour. If you have a look at the bottom of GeoSphere.cpp you will see these functions.Currently they use perlin multi-fractals and I haven't worked very hard to make the generated terrain particularly attractive.Craters would be nice. I thought of ways to make a few craters on the surface by adding them after the perlin phase, but they have an 'n' cost for n craters, which is bad. Really a planet should have a few huge craters and then ever-increasing numbers of smaller ones. I don't know a height function that would create this.For anyone inclined to have a bash at this: the input position to the height and colour functions is a normalized vector pointing from the centre of the planet towards the surface point under consideration.

according to GeoSphere.cpp you already have code for craters in place:double crater = 0;#if 0// :-(p -= m_fractalOffset;for (int i=0; i<m_numCraters; i++) {const double dot = vector3d::Dot(m_craters.pos, p);const double depth = 2.0*(m_craters.size - 1.0);if (dot > m_craters.size) crater += depth * MIN(-(m_craters.size-dot)/(1.0-m_craters.size),0.5); // <-- proportion of crater to be slope, before flat bottom}#endif /* 0 */return n + crater;}I'm not sure if this is a working version or just a placeholder. not a programmer myself but it sure looks like it to me...appreciate the reply.

to red rivera thoughtwhy don't subscribe to the pioneer-dev list, you can ask such specific things or make your suggestions there, not that it would embarass me or us, but then tomm didn't have to check so many threads for such things.additionaly it will appear then in his mailbox, i guess thats why it exists after all [url]http://mail.pioneerspacesim.net/mailman/listinfo/pioneer-dev_pioneerspacesim.net[/url]

RedRiver wrote:
according to GeoSphere.cpp you already have code for craters in place:double crater = 0;#if 0// :-(p -= m_fractalOffset;for (int i=0; i<m_numCraters; i++) {const double dot = vector3d::Dot(m_craters.pos, p);const double depth = 2.0*(m_craters.size - 1.0);if (dot > m_craters.size) crater += depth * MIN(-(m_craters.size-dot)/(1.0-m_craters.size),0.5); // <-- proportion of crater to be slope, before flat bottom}#endif /* 0 */return n + crater;}I'm not sure if this is a working version or just a placeholder. not a programmer myself but it sure looks like it to me...appreciate the reply.
Yeah that old crater code was rubbish, and was commented out.I have had another bash. It is a proper fractal craters (although sometimes they are a dubious shape), and so there can be hundreds of thousands over the whole planet (mostly small ones), without slowing things down too much.Have a peek:

me likey. much better than before ;)can't wait for next release!

that's quite a crater!cant wait to land into one and peek over the wall in a sundown(rise), that would give a nice pic, i guess.

This is really awesome, I signed up just to say so. This is something I would like to contribute to if time permits. As cool as the FFED3D project is, I think there's something to be said about the elegant simplicity of Frontier's graphics compared to FFE. A cleaned up high resolution version that still maintains that simplicity would be a beautiful thing.

right on commander!youv'e earned 256 pts. at once! apart from that you can have various "styles" for pioneer.either "clean" scripted models like FE2 ones or "hi-res" modelled ones like in FFED3Di guess i should keep on with the conversions of FE2 models.i could really need some help, there are much models to script and each takes it's time. ;)but of course everytime it grows a bit (pre-modeled submodels will help a lot in this case) and i get a little faster.

hey guys im pretty new on the boards but i tested this game out a few months ago and i have to say it looks epicbut quick question are their any plans to make it expansion compatible as in ooliteya see i been playing oolite as a replacement for ffed3d cos i hated the colision detection i always seemed to end up landing through the floor of the new starports and the panther clipper had a very annoying piece of bodywork in the way of the top turretts frontal arc (inpractical and frustraiting tho the modeling of said items is realy top draw) plus oolites combat is easyer with out the newtonian physics but what realy drew me in was the addon wealth on the elite wikii love customising my games to suit my style and if their could be a way to expand this when its finished i think it would be crackingkeep up the fine work tho frontier origional user (still play the amiga 1200 version still got the boxed game plus gazzeteer and storybook still love it loads )ant

Hi Spike1984Welcome to the SSCExpandability? Remember it is still early days for Pioneer, but there has been talk of providing missions at a later date. New models are also being added all the time, thanks to several members on this forum. Is there something in particular you would like to see in it? Remember also that the game is open to anyone who has the know how to add features. Perhaps you could create an addition for the game. Even if not, thoughts and suggestions are always welcome <img src="'[url]http://spacesimcentral.com/forum/public/style_emoticons//icon_e_smile.gif[/url] class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />Also, like yourself I discovered Frontier on the Amiga too. Happy days those early 90s; a great game on a great machine <img src="'[url]http://spacesimcentral.com/forum/public/style_emoticons//icon_cool.gif[/url] class='bbc_emoticon' alt='8-)' />

well i like the idea of being able to change the flight model to suit youegnewtonion model is realistic as hell but most people dont like the learning curve of flying ships (if starwars were realistic it would be no fun at all)perhaps a setting for making the ships handle as they do in elite for those of a beginner natureor some form of all stop command a la star trek (those ships have to slow down somehow and i figure the setting of elite would make the tech avaliable)maybe the inclusion in of the old worlds of the wichspace jump points and the option of fitting the wichdrive to your ship for cheapness but increased risk(tech is phased out it dosnt just dissapear amiga was replased by pc but you can still get one from ebay and sutch)rock hermits and salvage ops was a good thing not a bad thing that they took out of elite 2 (scrappers for cheap parts)as for new ships i think they could be added by an oxp people might like to expand on it themselves after release it ups longevity and improves the playing experiance (oolite has a brill selection of ships stations and tech to populate the ooniverse with)also i like the ability to fly big ships and im talking behemoth class i also like the ability to command your own fleet as in x3 these are all worth considering but not essensial (again an addon pack could be created)as for me im a beginner gmaxer and trainz2009 layout creator see sodor island 3d forums for some of my stuff (but im willing to try my hand at anything) i could always look into designing new ships/cities or updates of old ones (experianced layout creator?) if you like i would love to help make this game even more epic than it already is i dont want it to die like ffed3d has and if it is going to improve frontier i think it should do this in all respectsand a 40 quid game for free would realy create a buzz lol 8-)and sorry for the essay but i just had to empty my brain lol

Definitely like to Pioneer became some thing like Oolite with the same expandability that it has.

mostly i guess it is as expandable as oolite,of course limits are given through the closeness to frontierbut mainly it depends on you (us)a very often discussed topic, the (close to) newtonian flight model of frontier.i like it very much, never gave me troubles, some feel it's to easy (a lie?), most nube's feel it's to heavywhat brings up in me the idea that it's just perfect really i won't miss that, and truely it's not to hard to learn, imowell if you need really to make that a little easier for you, open the script of the model you use actually and alter the values for reverse, maneuvering and lateral thrust.if reverse thrust is equal to main a "full stop" is possible, maneuvering thrust set equal to main will let you maneuvre like in SW or ST, lateral has to set as a multiple of maneuvering, at least double since this is distributed to the whole lateral movementbut enemies flying the same ship will have of course the same advantage then.further i don't like suchi can only repeat myselfif i had acceleration dampers or maneuvering thrusters strong as or stronger as my main thrust i would use them then and fly "sidewards" or backwards or whatever gives me the most accel. all this is simply a question of reliabilty or logic.i don't know if you know star obsever (a magazine), once they discussed what's the most unbelievable parts in sci-fiit's not the use of a hypedrive or something get's you faster then light, no, it's exactly the fact that it's stupid to have maneuvering thrust or acceleration dampers stronger as the main engine.and if you look at this from this pov, you will say i'm right.of course hyperspace or ftl is to discuss to, drives used in sci-fi are generally to divide in two classes."star-trek", a clever idea and theoretically possible, using the fact that in a universe like we understand any point can be pulled close by using gravitational lenses, theoretically at least. if you calculate the amount of energy is needet to use it only for a small ship, it would need the same amount of energy our sun produces in her given lifetime, not even a antimatter reactor can produce such a vast amount of energy to project the equal energy for a gravitation needed for such."simple ftl", ok, out of question because of time diletation on relativistic speeds and no ftl is possible at all in our universe, further no one can tell what happens to you at speed of light, mass is infinite then and so on...."all the rest", using mostly a fantasy idea, that there exists a sub- or hyperspace, something that is excluded from known universe and it's physics, generally a state of null. no one can tell if it exists or not, neither we can tell how to get there.but imo, the most useful for sci-fi since you can't tell or judge it if you don't know nothing about the main idea (exists since the 40's last century) is that a vessel in entering hyperspace is excluded from time, speed and dimension, a hyper or sub-space will surround the existing universe at every point no matter how far or near such dimensions simply didn't exist.to enter such a space several ideas exist, from using also vast amount's of energy to crack the common space up or done by something like teleporting.one often used idea is that common universe is "moving forward" while you are in a state of null and it would be just a matter of how long you stay (compared to real universe) in hyperspace to reach any point in the universe.of course you ask now how could i know how long, if there is no time, you're right.but maybe this is all wrong, i remember a physician working on the idea that for quantum physics, relativistic universe didn't matters, so there is no time or distance all is the same, he claims that it's possible to "reproduce" anything at any point and any time in universe (quantum jump)...

I just wanted to add that FTL is totally possible in our galaxy from one person's perspective.Example:You are travelling at .9 light speed, already experiencing some pretty crazy relatavistic effects. You now acceerate to .99 light speed. From the observers perspective, you are travelling at 0.99 * 300000000 m/s.Now you would think this is maximum speed. But from the perspective of the pilot, it is not and there is no maximum speed. In fact, because time has slowed onboard your craft, it now takes you half the time to travel the same distance. Even though there is only a small percentage increase in your velocity. However, TIME SLOWS to compensate. What is 30 seconds on board the ship is more like 1 or 2 minutes off the ship.From the observers position, it would appear that the mass of the object had increased and so acceleration slowed. The more acceleration, the more the perceived increase in mass.From the pilots perspective, he shouldnt feel/see any increase in mass. But his world will slow down to compensate for the acceleration, so from the pilots perspective, given enough acceleration he could think he is travelling multiples higher than the speed of light. And from his perspective he truly is. But from the perspective of the observer/galaxy, he is not travelling so fast.Relativity ;)Using this idea, if we build a ship that travels at .9999999999 light speed, we would all be able to travel round the galaxy in our own lifetimes, but as far as Earth was concerned it would take hundreds of thousands of years.Everytime you travel by car or on a plane, whatever. You experience relativity. Basically the change in the passage of time depending on the speed you travel.Over your lifetime you will gain one or two seconds in time from relativistic effects.
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"simple ftl", ok, out of question because of time diletation on relativistic speeds and no ftl is possible at all in our universe, further no one can tell what happens to you at speed of light, mass is infinite then and so on....
The trick is that you never reach the speed of light, no matter how fast you think you are travelling, you are never travelling as fast as light as far as the universe is concerned.The universe however travels way faster than the speed of light. So theres an interesting distinction that space itself can travel as fast as it wants, but objects passing through the space are limited by its laws.Hence the hyper-space idea. Outside of normal space-time you are no-longer governed by its laws. Now FTL is possible without relativistic effects.
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a very often discussed topic, the (close to) newtonian flight model of frontier.i like it very much, never gave me troubles, some feel it's to easy (a lie?)
Haha, its not a lie , it really is too easy. Go and play orbiter then tell me elite is hard

The point I was making before is that in a single player game, the player can travel FTL and not break any laws of physics.In fact this already sort of happens when you make a jump. A month of game-time might pass but its only a few seconds for you.

woah woah woah back the sci fi train into the station a sec and let off a litle steam their champi just read your ansers to my ideas and my brain just went like GERONIMO and dived out the back of my head all i asked was if it was possible to add a all stop or even a orbit target command s20dani didnt want an anser that you need a degree in particle physics or quantum mechanics to understand truth is most avid sci fi gamers dont have the capacity to understand newtonion physics and most like me dont know a thing about hex editingso a button to turn off the ship physics would be grandalso a orbit target command would be usefull aswell their has to be some way of simplyfing it for those like me who cant fly a starship(and i have had 15+ years experiance at doing this and im still no better)let me break it down for ya (and im gonna adress the hyperspace theory too so stay with me please cos i might not make a lot of sence but i assure you it sounds good in my head)i want to feel like i command the shipnot the other way roundfor too long i have been using autopilot and i just want to do this in a way that dosnt require me to learn the advanced mechanics of spaceflight but still lets me enjoy combat and the sci fi element that is pioneer and was frontierits easy for me to get these things from say x3(which i have) but the open ended expansion possibilitys of pioneer apeal to me so much like here is a chance to finaly get the space sim i have craved for a long time since frontier and with pioneer still bieng worked on it gives me a chance to input some of these ideas and help in some way (im creating some cruisers and sutch as its my own particular brand of experties)as a frontier purist i have mutch intrest in trying to learn how to use the newtonian model and whilst the scientist within is screaming that its the logical choicethe sci fi kid within says yeah ..........buta way of simplyfing things by way of choice would appeal to both purists an casuals alike and i personaly dont mind my enemys sharing the same advantages as me...........infact i relish the challenge and purity of leveled out,fast paced,dont know where your enemy is from time to time.duck and dodge combatwithout worrying that the computer knows how to pilot ships better than i do and that the space pirates always have this advantage (also their is no better pleasure in life than putting your oolite ship into all stop , letting an enemy on your ass tight overshoot then hitting the gas pedal and picking them off)fighting in frontier takes more skill yes.....but this is due to the difficult learning curve of the flight modelalso the theory of not having your retro engines more powerfull than your main thrusters may make sence in lifebut the FICTION in science fiction is their because it is imaginaryand like i said before the future setting makes all things possiblei mean its set in the same timeline as the star trek franchise and falcon adventure game story books and in both of these things even time travel is mechanicly possible (and very well thought out) yet we know time travel is only theoreticaly probable in real life but it still dosnt stop us enjoying the idea now does itas for hyperspace sub light travel and stuff like thatwho cares if it aint gonna ever happen cause anti matter reactors wont be powerfull enough on a small shipas far as im concerned the main way of getting from A to B in space should be by way of a fusion reaction inside a stardrive .........no matter what the size of shipthink of it this waybig ship = bigger stardrive = greater range and more capacity for stores .........butbig ship = slower sub light speeds and low turning circle (think of it as like commanding a tanker)this would make sence because a big ships sub light engines would be the same size as the biggest readily availiable its just where as a small ship has 1 drive big ones may have several just to achieve enough pushthis is the trade off but also bear in mindbig ship = more guns more capacity for armouring and more capacity for shieldswhere as asmall ship = small and some times no drive = less rangesmall ship = increased manouveribility but has depleted capacity and little or no shieldingbut small ships range can be increased by bieng carrier bornein my eyes their are 3 main types of star drive and these would depend on the status of the pilot (millitary or civilian rich or poor ect) and they are as followswitchdrive = uses a stargate or witchpoint beacon to open up a hole in the fabric of space to the void of nothingness and null space known as witchspace (the very same area that dr whos tardis enters that is beyond anything in reality) i dont know the mechanics but im guessing it targets the witchpoint and tells it where it is going and then the beacon creates the wormhole to that point in space as long you have sufficiant fuel for the jumphyperdrive = uses neuclear fusion to generate its own witchpoint or wormhole without the use of a gate but both types can easily be followed through by piratesstardrive = uses complex calculation to plot a course through the universe to the destination and speeds up to the required speed (ie warp factor 5) vessel orientates then auto locks in the direction of the systemthe drive put on depends on some differant factorsmy point is they should be on as a seperate (and interchanceable drive)to the main sub light drive not because they are realistic but because they are cooltheirfore dosent it now make sence that because the hyperdrive is imaginary cant the theory of haveing a sub light drive that instantly stops although imaginary be in their toomy apolagies for waffleing and for perhaps not making any sence but i dope hope you understand my point and im not meaning to offend anyone i just thort i would express my views on the matter of weather or not travel in space should be realistic or notthank you for your timebut i also have a lot of knowledge of weaponry and other tech that could be incorperated and i might be able to help with that sort of thing so feel free to ask if you do need itdidnt mean to go on a bit lol

I don't think there will ever be a fully inertia-lessdrive unless someone with intent delves into the source and tries to make something like that.I agree it would be great if we could swap the sub-light engines also to upgrade the thrust. But for now at least you can edit a few ship files and increase the thrust to make flying a bit easier.Open up a ships .lua file and search for 'defs'you will see something like this below 'defs' :
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'Talon Military Interceptor',{ 2*10^6,-9*10^6,4*10^6,-1*10^6,-2*10^6,2*10^6 },8*10^6,
Red is Reverse thrust, orange is forward thrust, darkblue is hover thrust, green is up thrust, light blue are left and right and purple is rotational thrusters.If you change the ^6 to ^8 or a higher number, then your ship will have crazy response if thats what you want.

good advice s20danspike84, sorry, i didn't want to blast you down with senseless stuff out of my brainyou own frontier?i have made some (even senseless ) presaved gamesthey are mainly made to get common with all things needed to control a spaceship in frontierbut also good to play a round of frontier just for fun, instead of starting a "full" gameshorta mission to get common with docking to a spacestation and one for landing on a surface spaceport, manually of courseone to make a lot of planetside landings to get common with that (get ore from mb4 mining machines).some more for different like delivering, photo or bombing.i guess if you work yourself slowly through the tasks of the missions, you will get experienced.the "feel" is mainly the same in pioneerFE2 utilities collectioni remember it like it would have been yesterday, sounds stupid, but i had in frontier feels of height i never had before or after, getting so nervous while trying to land on a gasgiant that my hands was continousely sweating, now i can do it almost blindfold.i would of course offer you some prepared savegames for similar tasks in pioneer if i had allready made suchmaybe something i have to think about to plan as common missions, i guess that should be possible.but i can't promise, i have a lot of things to fix allready which have a higher priority (disorderly tiled textures, some building enhancements respectively degradings, updating all my models to latest features)but i will see what is the most interesting part to me as well, actually i'm resting a bit, i need some calm-me-down maybe to work on.anyway some ideas to manage pioneers flightsystem,battleimo, after trying different tactics, a manual flight seems to work best, if you have the possibility use a joystick at best a dualstick similar to a PS pad.to my own surprise a analog joystick for the common movements (climb,dive,turn l/r) is supported by pioneer allready (haven't known that but after a question from someone here i had to check it) any other commands can be assigned by the controllers software (in case you own such one, which i can only strongly recommend, not only for pioneer or frontier) logitechs (i don't want to advertise for a brand here but i haven't found any better) got a very intelligent software and imo the control via emulated keys is even in pioneer better then whats implemented, for frontier no question. so after all for a gamer a good investment and as important as a good gfx card, maybe more and after all not that expensive. of course there are solutions to use a ps pad for the pc but with the lack of such a software and simple key assignment is not what a good software can offer (gernot, i thought you want to keep it short?).setting up the stick,as a idea use pitch and yaw on the left controller and individual thruster control on the right, while the roll and manual accelerate decalerate commands are assigned to the front triggers, this covers the main controls the rest can be set up as it pleases you, a good variation to that is to exchange forward backward thrust with bottom top thrust, it's a bit complicated in the beginning but gives you more freedom in a fight, because you still have a thumb in range of the fire button. why should i use at all such a controller? easy answer, a fault many pilots do is to move only in 2 dimensions, a good setup stick can help to prevent from that, you will have full control allways over all axes even roll, when using roll and pitch/yaw together you can "break out" likewise with a airplane. more, accelerate like in good old FE2 when you are following your enemy as soon you recognize he turns his ship start to break, it's possible now to stay in one line with him and not getting hit while you cover him with shots. don't stay in line to long and try to suggest on which side he will break on to, be faster as your enemy. if repeatingly done you will also feel that you get closer and closer to him, the circles you make around him are getting smaller, this can get as far as you feel you didn't have to break no more or you will maybe have to accelerate a bit when he's aproaching to you (now you are in the situation that you hunt him, instead of getting hunted, hunt him down then ), in a good situation you will have him now in front of you while he's showing it's broadside. since spaceships unlike a windjammer have no guns on the broadside a benefit for youok, more tactical advice, as long as you control your ship manually it's a good idea to set the target on your enemy (pause game, click on the ship with mouse), as soon as you use speed control it's not that wise, i guess because pioneer cheats a bit in the case you selected your enemy, in manual flight this is a real help, in speed control it can be annoying, imho and leads generally to a endless circle around your opponent. if you are ever in such a situation that both ships circle around each other, try to break that circle if possible, leave him, go somewhere else, accelerate, break out or simply go straight up ("up" is usually a good idea, since AI pilots tend to make same mistake human pilots do they "think" in 2d) for a time and try to plan your attack new. switching to speed control now can be really helpful, until you get a little distance to your opponent, might be that stupid fighter is flying still in circles around and acting like a moth in front of a fire, get more distance, maybe let him escape and aproach from far (how can one write so much?). at least this method(s) helped me to stand even two couriers and a lanner all armed to the teeth, with my small adder equipped only with a 2MW laser.traininguse a simple function of pioneer, press CTRL-F12, wow a ship appears in front of me, great! and best of all a lame ladybird. ok, she's acting like a bouy and hangs around in space like shipwrecked but well, a target to fire on and getting comfortable with the controls.a savegame for those who have seen enough and like to quit, forever suicide_1.zip

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as a idea use pitch and yaw on the left controller and individual thruster control on the right
I dunno... I simply use the stick for rotation, thrust for main/retro, and the hat (a hat actually, but not everyone is fortunate enough to have three of them) for lateral thrusters. I'm using this setup since I-War, which was the first spacesim with newtonian flightmodel I played, and used the setup ever since. And, seriously, I don't understand why anyone would want to play SpaceSims games and not even bother about newtonian movement. It's like saying I want to play a car simulation where you can't drift: where is the fun in that?

right on commander!