SpaceSimCentral

So far all the ships in Pioneer are belly-landers, just like all the ships in Frontier before. The thing is... it isn't a very sensible configuration, especially when VTOL isn't just an option but the way all starts and landings have to work (you don't have any runways in Pioneer and wheeled landing gear isn't exactly the norm either). In almost every other game it would be purely cosmetic issue, but not here.Currently the ships in Pioneer lift off using additional set of thrusters, but given their modest thrust compared to Frontier (and the fact that it is actual thrust rather than set acceleration, meaning laden ship is significantly more sluggish) they may already experience problems when taking off or landing on massive planets - and do mind that the heaviest ships currently available are still classed as medium in their respective categories - the problem is likely to become worse as the number of available ships increases, all because for some reason they have to use dinky belly thrusters instead of aiming the big ones at the ground.Some of the existing ships also look really awkward in belly-lander configuration - I'm speaking of Mola Mola, first and foremost - it would look much better as tail lander as it looks just plain wrong standing on stubby landing gear protruding out of its rounded belly. The question is what can and should be done about that?1. Nothing at all. Self explanatory, everything stays belly lander, current style stylistic continuity with Frontier is maintained, the gameplay and internal logic problems remain.2. Everything should be tail lander. Pros include sensibility of such configuration and simplicity of one solution fits all approach. Cons include messy modification of existing models (landing gear), and the fact that some ships may look weird in such configuration (still not weirder than a space shuttle before launch) - do note that they may still fly belly down, they would only turn tail down for landing and remain so shortly after take off.3. Some ships should remain belly-landers depending on size or whether they already have models. Combination of advantages of 1&2, with added disadvantage of requiring extra code for handling the differences.4. Main thrust vectoring. Would require movable thrusters and may be difficult to implement sensibly for some ships, may also require modification of existing models, but hopefully without affecting their aesthetics as much as converting them to tail-landers. Would obviously require quite a bit of extra code.5. Some combination of 4 and one of previous options. Thoughts?

I think its quite a good idea and seems logical, a lot of the big ships in pioneer seem to big to take off with those small belly thrusters, and would add some nice diversity to pioneer. I think n. 3 would be the best. But since I have no experience in modelling or coding, I don't really have a say in it. Cool idea though :)Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Making tail-sitters an option would be the best route. You'd need some way to specify it, then you'd need a model to work with - perhaps just modufy the molamola, the autopilot would need to be modified to cope with it as well as the docking code.There'd obviously be some changes to the model loading / handling code. Nice idea, I doubt anyone would oppose it, but everyone is also very busy doing a lot of other stuff so... can you code?

Somes olds ships from the pioneer before A31 have now a landing tail system in Genesia : I don't know if its been easy to convert to SGM system but here is the solution i've found : i put that here if that can help ( its in in lua ,of course , because Genesia is under LMR) define_model('stardust', { info = { scale = 1.5, bounding_radius = 50, tags = {'ship'}, },static = function(lod) end,dynamic =function(lod) if get_animation_position('WHEEL_STATE') ~= 0 then call_model('stardust1',v(0,0,0),v(1,0,0),v(0,0,1),1)else call_model('stardust1',v(0,0,0),v(1,0,0),v(0,1,0),1)end end}) I've simply apply a 90° rotation along the vertcal axis when the landing gear was "on"

Neat visual trick but it doesn't change the thrust direction to point the main engines downwards, it only rotates the 3d model that it's drawing  Still a nice trick though

its not a trick , i think you have never try genesia , this ship take of in vertical position with the main trusther main thruster and land also with main .everybody who's play genesia can confirm that for alls rockets models ships in Genesia Note when in lua i call a sub model in a define pos i call this one with all his caracters . i put here the entire lua of this stardust for info: define_model('sd_wing', {info = {lod_pixels = {.1,20,50,0},bounding_radius = 10,materials = {'steel', 'w_glow'},}, static = function(lod)if lod == 1 thenload_obj('sd_wing_coll.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0)))end if lod > 1 thenset_material('steel', .55,.65,.7,1,1.2,1.4,1.7,30)set_material('w_glow', 0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,.7,1.5,2.5) use_material('steel')texture('sd_1.png')load_obj('sd_wing_1.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0))) texture('sd_2.png')load_obj('sd_wing_2.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0))) texture('sd_3.png')load_obj('sd_wing_3.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0))) texture('sd_glow.png')use_material('w_glow')load_obj('sd_w_glow.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0)))endend}) define_model('stardust1', {info = { lod_pixels = {.1,20,100,0},bounding_radius = 33,materials = {'steel', 'scoop', 'e_glow', 'win', 'thrusters'}, }, static = function(lod)if lod == 1 thenload_obj('sd_body_coll.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0)))end if lod > 1 thenset_material('steel', .55,.65,.7,1,1.2,1.4,1.7,30)set_material('scoop', .2,.25,.3,1,.16,.3,.36,30)set_material('win', 0,0,0,1,1,1.5,2,100)set_material('thrusters', 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1) use_material('steel') texture('sd_2.png')load_obj('sd_com_2.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0)))load_obj('sd_body_2.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0))) texture('sd_3.png')load_obj('sd_body_3.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0))) texture('sd_1.png')load_obj('sd_com_1.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0)))load_obj('sd_body_1.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0))) use_material('scoop')load_obj('sd_scoop.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0))) texture('sd_glow.png')use_material('e_glow')load_obj('sd_e_glow.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0))) use_material('win')texture(nil)load_obj('sd_win.obj', matrix.rotate(.5*math.pi,v(-1,0,0)))endcall_model('sd_wing',v(0,0,0),v(1,0,0),v(0,1,0),1)call_model('sd_wing',v(0,0,0),v(-1,0,0),v(-1.666,-1,0),1)call_model('sd_wing',v(0,0,0),v(-1,0,0),v(1.666,-1,0),1) use_material('thrusters')if lod > 1 thenlocal B_T1 = v(0,16.517,13)local B_T2 = v(14.164,-8.498,13)thruster(B_T1,v(0,0,1),20, true)xref_thruster(B_T2,v(0,0,1),20, true)endend,dynamic = function(lod)set_material('e_glow', lerp_materials(get_time('SECONDS')*.2, {0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,3,2,.7},{0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,2,1.5,.7}))end}) define_model('stardust', { info = { scale = 1.5, bounding_radius = 50, tags = {'ship'}, },static = function(lod) end,dynamic =function(lod) if get_animation_position('WHEEL_STATE') ~= 0 then call_model('stardust1',v(0,0,0),v(1,0,0),v(0,0,1),1)else call_model('stardust1',v(0,0,0),v(1,0,0),v(0,1,0),1)end end}) But maybe have you forget that in LMR the define model is not a visual effect ? There are none so blind as those who will not see Ù‡Ù†Ø§Ùƒ لا شيء أعمى حتى أولئك الذين لن ترى Not a matter for me afterall , the LmR ships can land or take off in any positions ^^. I've just post that to help, but if you think it's a trick , ok .

No offense was meant Vuzz!

No offenses Andy , But answer my question please : Did you have play Genesia one time ? i think no. i'm right ? 

Not in a long time.

how about a flying saucer those things can land both ways up just flip it over, put landing struts on top and bottom and shes good to go

Would it be possible to implement Genesia's solution into Pioneer?It should be accounted for by 3D cockpit, though. Also, one more advantage to having tail-landers: It'd allow for much bigger ships to be accommodated on standard landing pads, since they would have smaller footprint when standing vertically.

It could be done already in the way Genesia handles it. Only an animation that rotates the ship mesh when the gear is down. It doesn't move the trusters or camera tags though (neither does the latest build of Genesia though, I've checked. Camera stays the same, the mesh just pops to the other orinetation, and the thrusters exhaust disappears). I'd avoid doing anything like that though, it's better to make the autopilot and landing code know about it and handle it accordingly. I do want to make a couple of tail-sitters when that becomes available. (cargo tugs and such mostly). The Malabar/Vatakara and Mola-mola were supposed to be tail-sitter when they started out.I think belly sitters have their place in the game too, since it looks more familiar to most people (airplane).

Its not a rotation of a mesh its a rotation of the entire model , since i've changed my computed for a nice windowed 8 (fuck it) i lost my old camstudio , so i can't make a video , when ill have some time i make it , but the beter is simply to try Genesia before talkin' about ...

Well, doing it the right way would be better as it would help ensuring rotation to be physically correct and would avoid messing around with 3D cockpits.