SpaceSimCentral

Ok, I usually don't start ranting about things out of the blue like this, but I've had some recent experiences which very much call for a rant. Here is a big problem with a huge number of contemporary games:One badly needs some sort of analog control for translational motion, but controllers are terrible and the mouse is wonderful. Let me give an example: I've recently obtained a Steam controller and have gotten into some controller oriented games, in particular Dark Souls. When playing Dark Souls, one thing about it quickly became abundantly clear to me: Dark Souls would be better with a mouse. Yes that's right, Dark Souls, would be far better with a mouse. Why does nobody play it with a mouse? Well, in part it's probably because of a rather silly console culture that has grown up around that game, but, a far better and more legitimate reason is that it is simply absurd to try to control your character's movement with a keyboard. You just need to have an analog control for this, absolutely, no exceptions. Before some hard-core Dark Souls fan goes absolutely ballistic on me for advocating a mouse (which he probably would in any case) let me give an example of why this game badly needs a mouse. In Dark Souls it is very easy to fall off a cliff while fighting unless you are very, very careful. If you don't believe me, just touch a few bloodstains near a cliff, and you'll quickly be convinced that I'm right. Part of why it is so easy to fall of a cliff while fighting is because most of the time you are playing with your view locked on some enemy. The reason to do this is that it is very hard to control the direction of your view at the same time you are dodging and controlling movement on a controller. In order to control your view, you have to TAKE YOUR THUMB OFF THE DODGE BUTTON (a big problem in Dark Souls), and not just a little bit, a lot. Now, I'm sure some people play that way (I've given it a shot a few times myself) but, let's face it, it is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. This sort of issue comes up A LOT. Recently I've played through the breathtakingly lovely Hyper Light Drifter (though it is 30fps, they don't get a pass on that) and once again, the character movement demands an analog control, which is just fine with me. When it comes time to aim a gun however, you are forced to use the LEFT analog thumbstick (yes the same one used for character movement). Aiming is horrendous with a thumbstick in any case, but there is another control surface which is very, very precise for aiming in twin-stick shooters, and it is called a mouse. The solution? Use a mouse with your right hand, and an analog thumbstick with your left. Presumably, you now have practically unlimited buttons (my mouse alone has more buttons than the Steam controller) and you don't have to "grip" anything. This is clearly what is called for. This ALMOST exists, but developers, manufacturers and players are so agonizingly slow to embrace new control surfaces (if ever at all) it usually is a far-from-ideal solution. There is something called a "gameboard" or "gaming keypad" (search on Amazon) which are made by Razer and Logitech. The problem is, that in Razer's case the "thumbstick" is more of a joystick hat (i.e. no analog input whatsoever). The Logitech version of this mercifully has a bona fide thumbstick (though annoyingly lacks mechanical keys), which actually DOES support analog input, but sadly this doesn't solve the problem. Despite what seems to me like a good faith effort by Logitech, most games simply don't support this type of input. You can map it to a "joystick" input (although this is still more trouble than it should be), but most games with controller support do not have joystick support, and in most cases it wouldn't matter anyway because said games do not support that type of mixed input. The only game I have been able to use this successfully in has been Elite Dangerous. Usually, one is forced to map the thumbstick to keyboard input, largely defeating the purpose. As a long-time PC gamer, I am far more comfortable with the Steam controller's track-pads than I am with a right thumbstick. The right trackpad feels far, far more precise to me, and I can even use it to control the mouse cursor on my desktop if I am not in arms reach of my mouse and it doesn't make me want to hang myself. However, it is still no substitute for a mouse. It also simply does not have enough controls for space-sims, and the need to actually hold a controller, rather than letting it rest on a table, makes me extremely doubtful that any controller design could remedy this. In a space-sim I need 2 dimensions for lateral translation (ok left thumbstick), a joystick or mouse-like input for rotation (ok, right trackpad) buttons to fire weapons, switch weapons, countermeasures, targeting (ok, I guess the Steam controller has enough triggers for all that), power management (XYAB? though I now would have to take my thumb off the trackpad), throttle (wait what? if I use the left trackpad I'd have to take my thumb off the lateral translation controls, that doesn't work, if I use XYAB I have to take my thumb off rotation, which might work for power management but definitely not for throttle)... but oh shit, actually there are three generators of SO(3) and I also need a way to roll... well you can see where this is going, you simply can't use a controller for most space-sims. So in summary, yes, it's good to have an analog thumbstick like controllers have, but you also need a mouse, and lots of buttons. This isn't impossible, the solution is very simple and it ALMOST exists. So, I guess I'm just begging everybody to please, please, put effort into supporting this. Please Logitech and Razer, come out with "gaming keypads" with analog thumbsticks and a whopping big number of mechanical keys and please, please game developers, support these as controller inputs and also allow mixed input with a mouse. I know I'm never going to get this, but I just needed to make this shout into the void. And finally, if anybody doesn't believe me that a mouse is both more precise and "faster" than either a thumbstick or a track-pad all I have to say to you is this: Good luck with Unreal Tournament. End of rant.

I have been so close to starting a similar thread on several forums but I always have to re-write and plan the post so it takes too long to ever complete.. I would wish that games outright told their buyers about certain fundamental truths regarding gaming aspects such as 30/60 fps, engine-locked frame-rate, camera views available, made for controller, etc. instead of just hyping its graphics or size or procedurally generated *something*. I game on a PC and therefore use a mouse and keyboard. It would never enter my mind to buy a controller to play a game on a PC.If it is made with a controller in mind it will behave very differently than for a mouse and keyboard. Wider, slower turns, locking onto enemies, cover-based shooting, assisted aiming, etc. If you enter almost any games forum on steam you will find people asking if it can be played with a controller...An inferior gaming device when playing on a PC. It boggles the mind.

I think all the competitive or "professional" FPS players have always used, and continue to use, keyboard and mouse. I'm not a big FPS player though, and I'm not convinced that is the best in all situations. I first got a dual-stick (PS style) controller for the PC to play old twin stick arcade games like Battlezone, or twisty-stick games like Heavy Barrel before twisty-joysticks were a thing. My twin-stick controller was really great for all kinds of games on MAME. I always thought RTS games might be well served by one of those external ergonomic keypad/mouse things, but I guess they never caught on and I never tried one. But I do crave one of those Steam controllers. Aren't the dual touch pads like having two mice? couldn't you crank the sensitivity and acceleration settings just like you could for a mouse or touch pad? How would it work for something like KSP, or for a top-down EV-like?

But I do crave one of those Steam controllers. Aren't the dual touch pads like having two mice? couldn't you crank the sensitivity and acceleration settings just like you could for a mouse or touch pad? I do like the Steam controller, and if you are going to use a controller at all I definitely recommend buying one (like I said, with the world we live in, there are always going to be games that really demand one). I did thoroughly enjoy playing the few games that really don't really call for a mouse like Hyper Light Drifter and Axiom Verge with the Steam controller. That said, the dual touch pads is DEFINITELY NOT like having two mice. First of all, see my comments in my original post about things like space-sims which have complex controls. No amount of fine-tuning the sensitivity or acceleration settings has gotten them to feel anywhere near as precise as a mouse to me. I suppose I have to admit that it's possible that somebody somewhere is no more precise (or fast) with a mouse than with a touchpad, but you would have an extremely hard time convincing me that this could be the case for anybody who isn't extremely bad at controlling that type of input. I don't think there is any chance in hell that you could play something like Doom, Unreal, Nuclear Throne or an RTS anywhere near as effectively with the track-pads. Still, there are many situations in which the track-pad is one hell of a lot nicer than a thumbstick. I probably would not have gotten myself to play Dark Souls for more than a couple of hours without it.

Well, frankly it sounds like it is exactly right for me, then. I don't play much FPS or RTS. When I play EV-likes I build ships with turrets so I don't have to aim. My favorite games all have turns in them, or can be paused mid-action and orders changed. I play on my laptop with a touch pad, and have not owned a proper mouse in lord knows how long. I feel what you're saying: Mouse+Keyboard are the undefeated champs for most FPS and RTS games. HOTAS is the champ for most cockpit sims with any level of complexity (a friend of mine was one of the most effective pilots in one of those COD type games because he flew the helos with a HOTAS and pedals instead of twin sticks like most of the kids tried to do..). In no world is twin stick or trackpad good for any of those kinds of games. But I'm not all that high speed. XCom Apocalypse in real-time mode was too much for me, I had to put on turn mode - Haha. I honestly dont know what I want to play with a steam controler (though Hyperlight Drifter does sound good) that I cant do with a trackpad and keyboard... I mainly want one because it is one of the first innovative input devices I've seen in years and I want to support it. Also, gadget porn.