Why is Space Sim Gaming so unpopular?

[Pinback]

Blackthorn made some good point in his post and I feel that the space sim genre still has huge potential, but it needs to evolve and it may simple be no longer possible to make a game which set just in space especially for a mass market.Games like Precursors or parkan or even Universal Combat point the way as to what these games could become, its about giving the player something which they have not been able to do before. When I played Elite I always wanted to fly from space to the planet surface.When I played Frontiers I always wanted to get out of the ship and explore the cities.18 years later I’ am still waiting for some one to put it all together.

[CaptainKal]

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When I played Frontiers I always wanted to get out of the ship and explore the cities.18 years later I’ am still waiting for some one to put it all together.
Amen to that brother . Although to be honest, is very demanding job to try and merge two different genres (Space Sim and FPS/RPG). One genre has to have precedence to the other IMHO.

[CaptainKal]

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IMHO, merge two different genres (like Space Sim and FPS/RPG) does not give good results. I have Spellforce, which is a combination of hack'n slach, story RPG and RTS strategy. And it is not really my favorite game.
This is what I am talking about. I played it a little and I liked it. (Now it's on this huge "to play" games list, that I have ).
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I can imagine Prince of Persia + Freelancer blend. But not everyone might like that.
But a Mass Effect 1 and Freelancer? How about that? (But since you would need a huge sum of assets to make a game like that, you would have to simplify one or both of the parts). By the way have you played Space Rangers 2? And if you played it , did you liked it?

[Pinback]

The mixing of two game genre is not a new idea remember the Mercenary games on the 8 bit computer or Sundog and there are a few others but as already been said getting the balance right between the two parts is crucial.The FPS part would have to be an hybrid RPG/FPS like Boiling point,Stalker or GTA.

[Geraldine]

PINBACK wrote:
he FPS part would have to be an hybrid RPG/FPS like Boiling point,Stalker or GTA.
Finding a living GTA style city on some distant planet would be amazing. Anytime I play one of the GTA games and I take to the skys, I just want to keep on going until I left the planet all together. Yes, this is what a next gen space sim should be aiming for, but perhaps that vision is beyond the reach of present day tech?

[Pinback]

Love to see Rockstar take a crack at doing a space sim.I dont think its beyond the present tec, you can see how it would work in game like Precursors or even older games like Megatraveller 2 or the citys in syndicate.What it seems to be is beyond the will of most game deves to even try.

[chaosavy]

has this been mentioned before (I skimmed through the long thread)? Joysticks, I think this may be the very reason there aren't many space sims. Used to be if you had a pc you had a joystick. Games tend to be console ports these days, and consoles don't have joysticks (I'm not a console gamer so I could be wrong) or mice for that matter. Either way I think this may be the reason why.There also may not be any huge successes lately and no "big names" (like the Chris Roberts) so it is a bit of a catch 22. I still believe that people love space sims equally to other games. People love Star Trek/Star Wars/Battlestar galactica series. Freelancer did ok and was praised, so did Homeworld and Homeworld 2. Actually making a space sim is very attractive to an indie because... I don't have to worry about animating models.

[SpaceRider]

Darkone wrote:
Think we need a WOW factor again in space games. [...] What makes a great game for me is story... plain and simple. I want to care about my character and what happens to them. I want my flying and desicion making to have an effect of the environment while I play. .
I totally agree, the story is important and also the consequences of your decisions, combined with a bit humor. In fact, that was why Freelancer was fascinating to me because it came close to these ideas: There was an interesting story, a not too difficult game play, your actions changed your reputation and you could even talk to people (though I wish there had been more variations). What I dream of is a mixture of Freelancer, Poineer and The Sims. It could be this way: A big anchient alien ship wreck was detected and several gadgets are needed to repair it. Now you have to go and find them and have several options, e. g. talking to people in bars, trade with goods, visiting aliens on planets (each alien race could have a strength which could be useful to what you want to find), get in contact with pirates or just go treasure hunting on planets. To spice this with humor, you had to do a favour to the one who can help you, from something simple like giving ketchup and french fries to translate an information, providing moneyor medicine, doing a space rallye or fight one of his emenies. The game should be fair and always guide you to the places and people you need but it is on you how to interact with them. The more gadgets the alien ship has, the more easy could it become to find the other ones, and if all gadgets are installed, you will be able to start the alien ship and explore the universe. Maybe I am expecting too much, but this could be a "plus" for the genre, so that even non-sci-fi-fans could be interested in.Just my 2 cents.RegardsSpaceRider

[Pinback]

chaosavy wrote:
has this been mentioned before (I skimmed through the long thread)? Joysticks, I think this may be the very reason there aren't many space sims. Used to be if you had a pc you had a joystick. Games tend to be console ports these days, and consoles don't have joysticks (I'm not a console gamer so I could be wrong) or mice for that matter. .
You have been able to get joysticks on console for years as far back as the Atari 2600 in 1970s. In fact I think it was Atari that set the standard 9 pin joystick port we had for many years and mice have been available since the mid 1990 for most consoles.

[Petroleus]

ahhh, just had a magnificent daydream of a space-RPG, elder scrolls style.... no, not mass effect.. I mean real RPG where you can also say.. yeah.. screw doomsday, i just want to be rich, where you can fire a weapon in the vicinity of civilians, where I can do something for two hours without having any specific goal in mind and find mysterious items on far forgotten worlds..I've been following bethesda softworks ever since Skyrim was announced, and must say, if I expect any company to be able to pull something like that off, it'd be them. Their design philosofy just fits.I think that, apart from the countless great arguments in this far too long topic , there is no good reason why there shouldn't be any new great space games coming up. I think the only problem is nobody is doing it. I must make one correction: I think the true flight-sim, which I personally would crave, is indeed something that will never really grow to be big, simply because they require alot of effort to enjoy and the trend is .. not to require effort . I really wish for games where my understanding of the cockpit determines my succes, but I don't think it is fair to request that, knowing I am a tiny minority. But I see no reason why space couldn't be used alot more in other styles of games. Dead space is a try, but it used space as a skybox, where the actual game was for the most part simply a confined space shooter, which might as well have been underwater. Halo has some of the same problems, though it is alot bigger and has the intergalactic threat thing going on. Mass effect is nice, taps into the vastness of galactic civilization, but, contrary to my great hopes when i learned of it, really doesn't use space at all, merely as a means of fast travel. I love it for what it is though , I just initially REALLY hoped for some awesome space-battle.. and not the cut-scene kind. Eve online has many great elements, but it lacks those crucial to my acceptance. It builds a galactic commnity and even a real economy, which I think is an awesome accomplishment, it really uses the vastness of space, yet also has territorial battles and strategic points. It doesn't have nice worlds and cultures, but in part that is the beauty, because whatever cultures and worlds you find, are in fact other players somewhere on the globe. But it lacks nearly every element of space flight you can think of. All YOU are doing is docking, buying modules, fitting them, undocking and managing all the modules while you are apparently fighting another ship who is doing the same thing. To me it seems strange you would even be on that space-ship, you might as well be hiding on or behind a nearby planet remote controlling the craft(s), you're being something of a copilot anyways. I can't think of any games where the actual control of your spacecraft, or in fact any of the influences of space environment are used. I've never worried about my oxygen, temperature, radiation levels or floating away from my space-ship, "if my engines die now, i'm seriously f*cked", or crashing into my mothership, while that is in fact is the very nature of what space-flight is! I wish there would be a developer that would find a way to create the popular game, inside the realistic space environment. You don't have to make people study manuals to understand their cockpit, but at least let the essence of space, the fact you're in a tiny life-sustaining bubble that can easily burst, the thought that you are among planets, floating in the immenseness of a timeless universe, the only thing capable of bringing you back to your wife/beertap a piece of metal in the back,... capture that! and then if you REALLY want to make me happy, add a manual flight mode that DOES require hefty training

[Pinback]

Definitely the ability to just wander around without doing any missions or following any story line. It’s one the main reasons why I’ve have taking such a shine to Precursors. It’s a shame that the game is unfinished. If it had more worlds like Mass Effects uncharted worlds and made more use of the interior of the ship as in Sundog. Then it would have been very nearly my perfect game.

[Pinback]

Review of Wing Commander Prophecy, Freelance and Darkstar. This guy pretty much hits the nail right on the head about what he’s says about all three games and his comments about the X games are spot on.

[Geraldine]

Well he certainly didn't pull any punches there Pinback!

[CaptainKal]

I wouldn't rate Darkstar One 4 out of 10. A more generous 6 or 7, because it's a perfect entry level space sim. You can have a marathon session, you can play a in short burst, you can star playing with your mouse, and change into joystick if you feel comfortable. (Freelancer is also a perfect entry level space sim, but lucks joystick support). If I had to reccommend a space sim, it would go like this:Play Freelancer --> Play Darkstar One ---> Play Wing Commander Prophecy ---> Join Spacesim Central, because by now, you are hooked to the genre .Damn right about the X series. I am still stuck playing the first one after all those years.

[Pinback]

I think part of the problem with games like Freelancer, Darkstar and Space force. its hard to tell one from the other especially Darkstar and Space force as they are just so generic, how many times have we seen that storyline of the space cadet fresh from space academy inheriting his father ship or the same old game features.It like developer never seem think, how can we improve the basic game features, some of them like mining have even become more simpler than they were in Elite. It just seem that the same basic Elite type game gets remade every three or four years, with better graphic and usually an overhyped feature and we might be getting another one from Egosoft in a couple of weeks from now.

[Pinback]

de5me7 wrote:
(well i know its because its tried and test so less risk but still)
Very true I just wish developers would spend some time looking at the older games and then cherry picking the best ideas for their game instead of trying to reinvent the wheel every 3 or 4 years.

[SuperG]

Well some seek deep stories in games me not. I am a cutscene skipper.Played X2 X3:R X3:TC no clue of the story. Because I roam the universe. Hunting Pirates. Xenon kaa'kWith the latest boarding capitls with the new sub M7 class M7m missile Frigrat.Economy I notice it has a in depth one but can avoid it.Story comes from writers. Bulk of gamewriters aren't that good. But for the better ones even alround writers.They cost a lot.So a triple-a stuio seeks for good writers.Wile low cost production cant do that. Also those old big production they do feel right. that because they get the time to do it right. work it out.The funding to garther a top team and experience producer.The difference is good worked out menu systems, gameplay and well balanse. Wich is part of polish games need and getting the time quality and asurance need to have depending on kind of game.Comparing Xseries with all that old stuf make no sense to me. The closest games in release time are darkstar one and universal combat. So Why is space sim gaming so unpoplair?My take on it.1 ) it unpopulair by the busness part that fund so invest in games.2 ) unpopulair because there isn't for many years no big title hit out there to proof there is a market.chicken egg problem. So Red light from publishers.3 ) could be wenn profesional dev pitch such idea even with protype. the devlopment cost is due to the complexity and more depth of such game much higher. In technical GDD that is adress also planning. So riskier and higer cost.4 ) due to thehardware got again more powerfull more can be done. More detail complex scenes. problem lot more work to get it done.5 ) Is this kind of game suitable for current generation of mainstream gamers, to game got more common. So game must very accessable.6 ) The markets are now ruled by consoles, or beter play a larger role. PC is big platform but each console on it own are mighty big to ignore. So publisher look for games suitable for consoles but also can be adopted to console. consolified. console overhauled.7 ) unless not a exclusive most publisher like to go crossplatform. many huge market per each platform.So glad there is a egosoft who did deliver a series in present time. dito for darkstar one devs. Pity that it ain't large budged high profile productions.where is derek smart with his capitalship games. Universal combat?And DB want to but don't doing it for decades.So forget story unless its a big production with focus on story.

[Gargantou]

Personally from my experience the best writers aren't necessarily at the Triple-AAA studios as you seem to imply.I for example think that games by Obsidian generally have far better writing than by the two bigger Western RPG developers, namely Bethesda and BioWare.

[SuperG]

My experience is that I dont know those studio's not my kind of games.but I never seen good stoy with rushed or buggy unfinishhed game.The genres I folow aren't so story depending.There is a diverence by a triple A title that focus on gameplay with decent story background in a open world.Then above average production where story is the focus and gameplay suporting it.For pure singleplayer linair story you take a decent writer if the focus is FPS and have the budged. But if the focus is story you aim for the best avaible writer there is around wich fall within a large enough reserved budged.So you get CODBO singleplayer. So you get above average game writer who does a good job.While story junky's find it crap. it fit this action genre very well.But also games like Alan wake and Heavy rain wich I don't play but I bet they even look at high profile writers out the gamewriter crowed.

[chaosavy]

cool video review thanks!Makes me think about adding story into my project, I'm kind of on the fence now as to how much story I want (in reality how much story I can add) to add.I was excited about Darkstar one but Skipped it after the user comments came along.