P66 Models, one by one

[XB7]

Your work looks fantastic! I downloaded a few of your mods a few days ago and loaded them, but didn't see any changes. So I was under the impression that your mods were already part of the nightly build. Could you clarify that for me?

[XB7]

OK, I'm just not getting it. When I try to apply the sub_models patch, I get errors in the Mac version of Alpha23.Can you give a step-by-step guide on how to install your modules?

[Marcel]

I've found the problem with sub_models_alpha23_5. The included folder is supposed to be named 'data\sub_models' not 'data\sub_moddels'. If you install this it makes a new folder instead of overwriting the files in 'data\sub_models'. I fixed it by manually moving all the files into their correct locations. You could instead unzip to a temporary folder and rename it then move the data\sub_models into your main Pioneer folder.

[Potsmoke66]

OMG, i mean, oh my god did that really happened?ok, won't take long for a fix, i'm sorry that's the most stupid error ever, no excuses (even not the small keyboard nor the steady slipping of the cursor because of rotten touchpad which can't be shut off ).shit happens mostly after midnight...besides, sorry for not being able to put my stuff on github...simply guess i'm to stupid or whatever,however,it didn't works for me.let me do a rigged animation with three "bones" in a script, but spare github...[/hr]see, another reason why i guess moving all exchangable stuff to mods is fine.it's to see that one could in future "build" a complete mod for pioneer, means star-systems, models and scripts all in one, but therefore all must be moved there what is not needed for the engine.already i moved most things there in my installation, actually only the submodels are left in the "pioneer/data" directory (systems are already there and customized).but i'm thinking of even to remove the submodels and add necessary ones with the models or some even as a mod, but i have to make proof first if that will work.anyway it won't work "out of the box", it needs a stripped naked pioneer for this.personally i guess it's far safer as to move directories to/in the installation,further, like mentioned before, it would allow to create a replacement for the whole environment.actually i have a lot of small mods to exchange, especially because some stuff i like much, other i dislike much and i see others might like feel the same way.but if you have a "naked" pioneer, one could setup a complete mod (quite a big file then) and you place the thing to mods, while removing the other(s), and you go on with a "new" pioneer.perhaps i upload such a naked pioneer with (right after) the next release, it will be rather small without all the models, and you can place only the things to "mods" which you like to see in your pioneer.as a example one could make a basic FE2 mod, e.g. a "clean" pioneer and run that one, while someone else likes perhaps a more recent looking version.there is a little hurdle, 4 ships are requested by their name from pioneer, but by naming some 4 others the same this can be already handled.so if one would like i.e. a Star-Wars mod, he "only" would need some wrong named ships to go on (yeah, a bit stupid, but out of my reach to offer a better solution, not quite true, i could either change the source a bit for this or hack the compiled prog. for the needs, which would be actually the only option on my macbook, a lot of stuff didn't works as expected, so i can't install many softs i would need, similar goes to github...)really, one day i would like to install a "christmas mod" with snowpeaked buildings and other goodies, if the time is for christmas [/hr]ah, instead of a lot of words...

[Potsmoke66]

i found another little mistake in my spacports, will upload a fixed one soon together wih fixed submodels.

[Marcel]

Ok, another bug report. There's something wrong with the front cockpit view. The pics are right after taking off from Earth in a new game starting from Kourou with my home towns installed. The artifacts appear to be parts of the ship. They and the control panel move about in relation to the ship's angle to the ground.[attachment=1285:Eagle gap2.jpg][attachment=1286:Eagle gap3.jpg]

[Potsmoke66]

oh, i guess i reported that already in the "cockpits" thread when i presented the front view.yes i know it's a little annyoing, move the camera a little in front, what you see (the atefacts) is the pilots head (you see through it from inside/behind) sorry.the strange movement will stop as soon as you get no more height reading to a planet, it's a bit strange and i noticed it already sometimes with a standard setup front camera. but hard to recognize if you haven't any reference, you feel it more like a little seasickness i would say (am i drunk?).so this is a kind of a issue, but hmm, i didn't think interest in such crazy attempts like adding a pilots view isn't very big but like i said this persist even in a "standard" view, it's only hard to recognize. i guess it's the same reason as when a ship is docked or landed and you accelerate the time full, then you will notice a tumbling of the view similar to that (especially now with the cockpit view it's better to recognize, you tumble as the hours fly).actually not to get annoyed to much by it i imagine, ok, the pilot will lean a little fore and back to have a better view :lol:but you have still the original setup you can use...i was thinking of doing it vice versa, to name the experimental camera setup "shipname_x.alt", but then i thought no, i liked to provoke replies else you maybe won't noticed it and you wouldn't have posted it, so that's fine it was my intention.i like to know "like it or not", that's why they have the frontcamera setup by default.so if you don't like it (i guess you like it marcel) then feel free to post that, post your suggestions please, because if "everybody" feels it's useless i won't do it anymore.[/hr]argh, this way i get nowhere with the old factory... :mrgreen:hey, marcel you like to get my big crappy? i will do the needed changes in "no time".

[Potsmoke66]

nobody's perfect[attachment=1287:Bildschirmfoto 2012-06-24 um 19.04.13.png]a "uncovered" lanner, must be in a general service...

[Marcel]

I tried moving the camera around. First forward to v(0,0.8,-10). My head disappeared, (ha ha) but I couldn't see the canopy frame. I put it back and a little higher at v(0,1,-9.5) and I like it better there. Much less disconcerting. :)Just found a much more serious problem. I seem to be unable to land. I first noticed it after I installed all of your addons and loaded a saved game. It loaded and seemed to run fine except after leaving Deimos on autopilot to Cydonia I kept getting the message that my docking clearance had expired. I ignored it and the autopilot did a hard landing with slight damage and lots of noise and the landing lights stayed red. I took off and requested clearance to no effect. I then flew to Olympus Mons with the same result. I started a new game, flew to Tranquility Base and had the same problem. I exchanged 4_eagles.lua.gen with 4_eagles.lua, flew to Tranquility again and landed normally.Did some more testing. I had the same problem with Cydonia even after starting a new game. I'm wondering if your sport stations may be involved. They're installed but I haven't seen one yet. I wanted to let you know in case you read this before I come to a definite conclusion.Testing done. It was the stations. You did say you were having problems with them, didn't you? I disabled their .luas and now it works with my saved game and the cockpit, except that there are some unlabeled old Ladybird ships in the yard that crash the game if I try to look at them. So, Never mind!

[Potsmoke66]

i should havn't done it, check for a doubled instance for the ladybird in "data/ships" (ship specs), if you have my viper installed remove that, i renamed the police viper to "ladybird" to enable it as police ship. but of course if anything "older" (means a set of ships which contains the common ladybird) is copied later over it or something else has failed, i guess it has to crash, two ships with the same name can't exist.promise, i don't do it no more, i will offer the "ladybird-viper" as a extra model.i'm running all from mods now and such is no problem then, doubled instance? ok move the "infected" mod out and see if it's ok.while ok, I KNOW that i can't run the old ladybird and the "ladybird-viper" together.for me it's very handy, because if i'm working on a model i can remove most ships and leave only a mod containing the afforded 4 ships to start the game, starts much faster with a minimum of models.to the sealed space port, hmm, yes there is a slight problem, due to fact that the docking sequence is ONE for all bays it can get confused and all ships are "locked" inside the station, or they hang around inmidst of the sequence. this is like i said because of one sequence for all. but there is no getting around that if you have only one door for a groundstation.but it should only happen when you docked to it in a saved game (and of course for all "active" stations where some ships are docked).to explain, if you save a game and there are some ships docked to any station and you install now the "sport_hostile", some stations will turn to this.the ships that are resting in the station which turns to "sport_hostile" are now in wrong position and the docking sequence get's released, but let's say all bays are full, then it leads to a funny situation, one is halfaways docking, one hangs in the lift and the third presumerably "waits" for engaging the sequence "outside" (old position). two ships can't be docked simultanously, so the sequence locks and there is no way to free that.i will see perhaps i find a solution for this.in the orbital spacestations, no matter which, the ships are in similar positions, so it will never be a problem there when the type of station changes. they don't engage the "full" docking sequence, only the last part to get to the proper resting position (and there is no lift which can be used only by one ship), the sequence is else in general like for the big crappy (one at a time), but it seems it fails when ships are "inside" (resp. outside) and all want together find their "home".but like i said only for a loaded game, if you start a new one and keep then "sport_hostile" it should never happen.i guess i have already a idea to counter that, i have to tell it in a way that if there is a ship "docked" and it's not in the proper position not to engage the docking sequence therefore move it directly to the proper position (not "move" more a "flip"), so the docking sequence can't get "locked" because it's not released.good that i have you as a reminder i already nearly forgot this problem since i always have the "sport_hostile" in my installation and also didn't load often a career actually none, all is only testing and i know often when i change something i can't use the old ones, no problem for me, only a test run no "career".and if you load a fresh started game (let's say i bought a ship and equipped it to have a test ship ready to launch) after installing "sport_hostile" it's neither a problem, other ships that are probably docked to it will be already in proper position only your saved ship has to be moved, but of course any other station that has more then one docked ship and turns to "sport_hostile" will lock, i forgot this fact, sorry.well that's the next thing to do (must delay the big crappy).[/hr]therefore i fixed the wring named sub_models dir. and finished old "ACME Bolts & Nuts" for alpha23.the factory model will of course work in all releases, like most buildings it uses no special sub-models.need some supplyment?[attachment=1288:Bildschirmfoto 2012-06-25 um 02.04.01.jpg][attachment=1289:Bildschirmfoto 2012-06-25 um 02.04.jpg]and the files,http://spacesimcentral.com/downloads/Pioneer/potsmoke66_files/ACME_bolts_and_nuts_alpha23_1.ziphttp://spacesimcentral.com/downloads/Pioneer/potsmoke66_files/sub_models_alpha23_6.zip

[Potsmoke66]

that's not bad, i uplopaded a empty zip ACME_bolts_and_nuts_alpha23_2.zipbut anyway i enhanced the textures a little and it looks even better now.i added some transperency to the window props, that's a good method to let them look sunken in a bit, additionally to a slight shade.even the walls and chimneys have a fade to dark to let it look less plain and add more depth.[attachment=1290:Bildschirmfoto 2012-06-25 um 14.44.jpg]i know, i know, still a very basic model and "any cad" could do it better and in less time, but that's not the "goal", when you script a model.it's the challange i like, find a way to build something that equals to your imagination, find a way to texture it with simple projections.besides, look how the "window props" sink in visually, you can't do that with one material and one texture on one plane, no.the wall wouldn't be matte or the windows aren't glossy, neither you can let them "sink in" (except you model it), but if you do it this way they look fine.it needs a second layer for the windows or doors to achieve that, further you have to add some slight transparency to the border of the props, that's what let's them "sink in".i adapted this from "SC3K" and how the props are made there, they look very nice in a close up when you build, unfortunately for the game all get's rendered new and with such a low resolution that not much is left of that effect. but we can have it.you could add some stucco to to a building in this manner and it will look much better then just a single texture, much more realistic shaded.the difference is foremost because you can have a different material for the props if they are layed over and give them a own diffuse color or specularity.it's n ot that this could be only scripted, but i guess if i look at most other buildings anywhere they have windows "plastered" with one texture on the wall.seems like you have first to script one to find better ways. (roll back the shit, like i state below) [/hr]apropos texture projections.i snooped once a little into the model cache and noticed that the scripted models are extremely blown up, yes of course all LOD's geometry is stored seperately, offense. but what i'm worrying a little about is that i expect the texture will be per face for the cached models, of which i know it's much more consuming power rather a projection (check NVIDIA's history page). it's not that it wouln't have been technically possible to have perface textures back in the early 90's, no the machines was simply to slow to manage a game with perface textured models, so there IS a difference between. besides i feel the cache makes the scripted models "unwanted", i mean they have no longer any advantage or not much.i feel already with the caching it would be better to convert the scripted models to .obj, they run actually better, but it wasn't always like this.so you can go on "tweak" the handling of the models until scripted models are useless and then tell us it's not good (that's what i fear).only because some think it's not "state of the art", no it's certainly not state of the art, it's progressive art if you really like to get something new you can't build on existing, it will lead nowhere, you never found something new then, nothing.only when you roll back the shit and start from 0 it's possible to do it better any else is "flickwerk" (patchwork).i loved it from the first bite and i'm still grateful for the scripted models, yeah i do really love that shit.i know some devs would like to see DX meshes, not so i, i love this method of scripting models and instead just to take something existing of which i think it's a compromise, we should go in a own direction.also i "fear" that the cached animations are now "stepping" from frame to frame, likewise a "odd" DX model does with it's matrix animation.it's not fluid, not really animated, it's a stepping from frame to frame and a altering of the matrix.i know visually there is no big difference as long as the frames per second are high enough.a little more history, to me it was funny to see how modelers worked out the animations for FFED3D, they expected a common handling of the DX model.but FFE handles animations exactly like pioneer has handled scripted models, dynamic not stepped, you don't need any frames for a animation in FE2/FFE only a start and a end (for the "hard coded" models the same shit like we use, translate (often single vectors) from - to and rotate with radians), the rest get's managed by the game. so any working on frames and framerate is useless for FFED3D, except you need to change the direction of a animation (speed you can't change no matter what you do it didn't get's regarded, or not as expected, it will change the speed if you force it with longer or shorter steps/frames, but i feel this a a "violation" of FE2's animations, or you can hack the model and reach then something special, but not everyone is willing to do so, i mean if you do such, hacking a DX model, ok then you can start even to script them. and even more, if you go on and hack the "hard coded" models to reach a special animation... start scripting then).personally i love this "back to the roots", we should really take the chance to make something "new" out of it, instead copying DX methods.imho, DX meshes are NOT the non plus ultra, they are only most common and due to MS monopolism state of the art, that's all.there are some "leaks" or hurdles for scripted animations, so it's nearly impossible to make correctional posings, means a can't simply correct a slightly misfitting joined animated part with a changing of it's matrix, to make it fit again with the other animated parts, that's not possible or would cost a i don't know what calculation for it. but that's anyways "cheating" in my eyes.i mean if you think of connecting rods you can't influence that, it works - the steam engine is able to rotate the wheel, or it didn't works and it's blocked, there is no "correctional data".and likewise it's possible for real machines to transform a translation to a rotation or whatever movement, the same must be possible for a model, without correctional data. it's only a question of investigation and a little maths.this is modeling to me (even when i'm neither a perfectionist) like it works in reality it has to work in the model, virtual models or real ones.of course i'm a lazy modeler and cheated often in my scripted models, but it's also a question of experience, actually i learned a lot and would do a lot of things different as a year ago.one of my biggest problems was always how can i synchronize a rotation and a translation (e.g. a rotating landing gear to a translating piston), "parenting" isn't possible like you do in a cad, or different to do. but after the last (the "R41") i know now how to achieve that and once you found out, it didn't seems so hard to do.

[Marcel]

Nice looking building. The ladybird issue was only happening because I was foolish enough to try to use a previously saved game. If I left the system it would probably go away. However I want to report that starting a new game with the sport stations installed, and flying from one of my Philbywhizz based pads to another still caused the docking clearance expired problem. After a rough landing on the pad I can request clearance and the ship will rotate into position and the station screen will display, but the docking clearance expired message stays on the scanner.

[Potsmoke66]

interesting fact, i will check that.
Quote:
and flying from one of my Philbywhizz based pads to another still caused the docking clearance expired problem
hmm, docking timout wrong or not set?usually i add the same shit to all stations "DOCKING_TIMEOUT_SECONDS = 300", because in the beginning it was only in "spacestations.lua" present, when you removed them i.e. to have only your own models in the game it didn't worked, so i guess all should have this in front of the script to grant it will work.you said it's philly's model (respectively your modification) has this problem, but it vanishes with removing of my stations, double hmm...do i have your "pad station" version somewhere?but i will check it first with what i have present let's see.

[Marcel]

I'm finding I have the same problem whether I have your sport stations installed or not. The cockpit has no effect on it either. I wonder if it's caused by moving spacestation.lua from the models folder to the stations folder. I put my version there and changed the texture calls. It seems to work, but is there something else that you changed in there that I missed? Here's the file in its current wip form.[attachment=1291:spacestations.7z]It's modified to use your adverts, and needs the textures from spacestations 15.[url]http://www.spacesimcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2936&start=520[/url] pads are posted here. [url]http://www.spacesimcentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2936&start=490[/url] I see it's been downloaded three times as of now. Assuming Gernot only did it once, please let us know if you've seen any problems or not.

[Potsmoke66]

like i thoughtit misses
Code:
DOCKING_TIMEOUT_SECONDS = 300
in front of the script, add this to the first line and "stay clear" or "steer clear" or "stare clear" (whatever) (if you like to have a docking timeout of 5mins)without, the docking timout is 0 seconds and as soon as you request clearance it's run out of time.steer_clear.mp4strange, i downloaded the whole movie from youtube, but when i upload the excerpt it's "closed worldwide", so it's now on photobucket. attempt to fool with quotes arond title failed, i really wonder how this person could get the video published, bribing someone?now to the uncovered lanner, what a **** has happened there? (my shit)
Code:
rand_reg()if rand_1000 < 143 then -- plain color variableset_material('lanner', get_arg_material(0))use_material('lanner')call_model('lub_c0', v(0,0,0), v(1,0,0), v(0,1,0),1)call_model('squadsign', v(7.57,1.2,-27.2), v(1,0,-.475), v(-1,.99,.401), 2)set_material('text1', 1,1,1,.7,.3,.3,.3,10)set_material('text2', 0,0,0,.7,.3,.3,.3,10)elseif rand_1000 < 286 then -- plainset_material('lanner', .65,.7,.8,1,.7,.8,1,30)use_material('lanner')call_model('lub_c0', v(0,0,0), v(1,0,0), v(0,1,0),1)call_model('squadsign', v(7.57,1.2,-27.2), v(1,0,-.475), v(-1,.99,.401), 2)set_material('text1', 0,0,0,.7,.3,.3,.3,10)set_material('text2', 0,0,0,.7,.3,.3,.3,10)elseif rand_1000 > 428 then selector1()if select1 < 21 then -- redset_material('lanner', .65,.7,.8,1,.7,.8,1,30)use_material('lanner')call_model('lub_c1', v(0,0,0), v(1,0,0), v(0,1,0),1)elseif select1 < 41 then -- yellowset_material('lanner', .65,.7,.8,1,.7,.8,1,30)use_material('lanner')call_model('lub_c2', v(0,0,0), v(1,0,0), v(0,1,0),1)elseif select1 < 61 then -- blueset_material('lanner', .65,.7,.8,1,.7,.8,1,30)use_material('lanner')call_model('lub_c3', v(0,0,0), v(1,0,0), v(0,1,0),1)elseif select1 < 81 then -- greenset_material('lanner', .65,.7,.8,1,.7,.8,1,30)use_material('lanner')call_model('lub_c4', v(0,0,0), v(1,0,0), v(0,1,0),1)elseif select1 > 80 then -- crimsonset_material('lanner', .65,.7,.8,1,.7,.8,1,30)use_material('lanner')call_model('lub_c5', v(0,0,0), v(1,0,0), v(0,1,0),1)endset_material('text1', 1,1,1,.7,.3,.3,.3,10)set_material('text2', 0,0,0,.7,.3,.3,.3,10)end
what is between 286 and 428?nothing!

[Marcel]

Now I understand. The docking timeout has to be at the top of the file, and I broke it by putting the big TV above it. Strangely, Philbywhizz's ground stations never had that line and it didn't cause a problem. Pioneer must have set the value from spacestations.lua. Thank you! I'll get an updated file posted.

[Potsmoke66]

true, yeah as long as spacestations lua is in "models" dir. it gets handled prior to the others so the timout is set for all following.but if they "standalone", they need it.anyway, it didn't harms when you add it and you have the opportunity to set a different timeout, where i see no reason for.[/hr]added fix for the "Caiman", was broken due to vanished "deg2rad" function.it's in,mods_P66ships_vol2_alpha23_2.zipfixed missing lanner hullships_FE2_vol2_alpha23_2.zipadded some custom systems as a "mods archive" check Page1 for how to use them.mods_systems_archive_6files.zip

[Marcel]

I put a multi_advert on the back of the nice_spacestation. I runs for a while then the game crashes with this message.[attachment=1298:advert_error.jpg]The length of time before the crash depends on the string I use in the tonumber. 'rear' and 'back' crash it fairly quickly but 'splash', which I use where station_splash used to be lasts much longer. Sitting inside the bay looking at 'splash' seems to last infinitely. I'm not positive about that because I haven't looked at it for an infinite amount of time. I don't see where the bug is. Here's my spacestations.lua if you want to look at it. The line number of the ad is 1689.[attachment=1299:spacestations_with_ads.zip]By the way, who is that dancing with Spidey in spiderwood? That's cool!

[Potsmoke66]

yeah, the animation is cool, i don't know who, some marvel heros for sure.i only entered to google "animated gif", and this appeared somewhere, it had fit my idea of a little "movie".the gif has originally 90pics, i stripped it down to 45, but it still looks fluid.
Code:
multi_advert(tonumber('splash',36), v(0,-403.1,18), v(-1,0,0), v(0,0,-1), 40.0)
ok, i thought so, it misses the zbias setting, usually 1 if you poster it on a geometry with the default zbias of 0.this avoids the flickering you would get else ("z fighting" planes).i added this to get around the preset zbias of 5 i used before, to make sure the ads work even when a underlayed geometry has maybe already a higher value as 1 or 2.i should add this even to the decals (means make a function of them to).proper called it would be
Code:
multi_advert(123, v(0,-403.1,18), v(-1,0,0), v(0,0,-1), 40.0,1)
(me and my funny ideas, tonumber - ts)if it's on a geometry with zbias 0 (not needed to set nowhere, all geometry has zbias 0, until you declare a higher one.but needs to be terminated if you once set a higherusually, in front of a overlayed geometryzbias(integer,v_pos,v_normal)as example,zbias(1,v(0,0,0),v(0,1,0)) if the plane is positioned v(0,0,0) and the surface "looks" upwards v(0,1,0) and if it's the first overlayer.here follows the overlayed geometryto terminate it usezbias(0)then rest of the geometry

[Marcel]

Thanks. That shows how much difference 'one' can make.