The Balancing Act

[tomm]

KingHaggis wrote:


Quote:
I know that Pioneer is based on Frontier, but that's no reason to adabt the minimalistic hud design.
But maybe the maker never intended Pioneer to become more than Frontier. I've said it about 3x before, I would love to see Pioneer become "more" than Frontier. But if it has never been the intention of the creator, and never will be the intention of the creator to let Pioneer evolve beyond Frontier, then you just can't call the HUD a weak point of the game as it's exactly the same as in Frontier.It would be easier to wish for things if you knew the plan for Pioneer.
I have a plan, but other contributors will introduce their own direction into the project. I have always intended to go beyond frontier, but also I wanted to learn the lessons of over-ambitious and failed project.sThe plan is:version 1.0: All the (desirable) features of Frontier, essentially similar gameplay mechanics (physics, equipment, cargo), flexible mission scripting so we can go beyond Frontier in terms of missions and other game content.version 2.0: Crazy experimental shit like full 3d galaxy, owning a fleet of ships, walking on planet and all that stuff you dream of.The reason to keep version 1.0 somewhat constrained by the Frontier game design is that it ensures we have a clear path to actually completing the game. I don't want to code for 3 years and have an experimental game engine and nothing anyone can play. Having said that, there are things in Pioneer that go far beyond what Frontier had, like the terrain engine. But the terrain engine did not require a rethink of game design or balance and was very self-contained code-wise.So until a playable version 1.0 I am cautious about experiments in game mechanics, and would prefer smooth development of missions and such like, as the game is really at the stage where real game content of this sort can be added.Of course, I'm a big hypocrite, since I spent today playing with planck's blackbody radiation equation with the intention of making a more realistic planet greenhouse gas model. But this stuff interests me, and doesn't cause a domino-effect reconsideration of already implemented game elements (or at least not much).In short: we are almost there so let's not lose the plot

[UncleBob]

Ninja'd by Tomm, it turns out...@KingHaggis:calm down a bit. I am a developer myself and know very well how annoying it is to have people make utopian feature requests that are nowhere in your design plan to begin with, and certainly not at the point you're standing currently. If I wanted to make such requests, I could easily write up a ten page essay, but I won't, for exactly that reason. Also, I stated above that I don't think that these improvements are on the current top priority list, but since I was encouraged to give input I thought I might as well give it for future reference. There's a reason between asking for completely new game mechanics an suggestions on how to make the current ones better. Frontier was as it was because of technical limitations, and I'd wager because of time pressure. You simply could not put complex information in a hud with that low a resolution and keep the oversight, and at least FFE was released unfinihshed, without complete features. Plus, I think pretty much all frontier-purists can agree that Braben neglected the user interface while making staggering accomplishements in other areas. For example, we have a 6 degrees of freedom control system since JJFFE, not since original frontier (and not even since FFE), although there certainly wasn't a technical limitation preventing it. Yet I hear absolutely no-one complaining about it, because it enhances an essential feature of the game. As would a better hud, which is the next logical step, because it would make those six degrees of freedom so much more usefull. If it's nowhere in the Dev's plans, I fully respect that, but wouldn't quite understand it. It's a big difference between implementing totally new features and making current features more accessible and usefull. That aside, the volume/mass system introduced with this WIP is already an extension on Frontier, so I might be on the save side to assume that the Devs would indeed like to improve the overall handling of the game (which is possible without turning it into a universe simulator sandbox where you can manage your own moss-eisly cantine if you'd like to).
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It would be easier to wish for things if you knew the plan for Pioneer.
Indeed it would be, but I couldn't find a detailed roadmap anywhere, suggesting that the developement is progressing cowboy-coding style. Which makes it hard to guess the opportune moment when a suggestion is in order and when it isn't, so you just let the devs know your oppinion and see if they make something out of it.
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I think it's also very hard for a developer to start working on something when each day, there are 10 different people with 10 different requests. You'll have to make a list eventually of what will be and what won't be in the game to let people know and so the developer can stick to that route without going crazy with the requests.
That's exactly right. It is none the less important to have the suggestions if you want to make that list. If the Dev chooses to ignore mine, I'm not the one to complain.
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X52 joystick support
I suggested BASIC joystick support (3 axis) which is more or less what we had in frontier. Plus one axis, yes, but since we have controll over that axis (which we didn't in the original) that would seem to make sense, not?
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you just can't call the HUD a weak point of the game as it's exactly the same as in Frontier.
I can still call it a weak point because it was a weak point in Frontier, and I have yet to find a person that disagrees with that opinion, be it hard-core fan or not.EDIT considering the lanner textures: The textures in the file posted above do work in A7.5, but the lua file doesn't. So just replace the .png's in the current source with those from that zip and you're good.

[KingHaggis]

I am calm . I just think you think I was being negative about you while I was actually positive about you and the same time thinking loud how the developer (Tom) would deal with all these things and what I would do when I was in his shoes.You may think I was attacking you or something but the "you" in my posts refer to "you" as in people in general. My comment isn't pointed towards you personally but I'm just openly expressing my thoughts. Don't read it as critisism. In fact, I was reading your post with great enthousiasm and feel the same way. I agree with just about everything you say and want the same things. I can post a whole story now but just re-read the comment. It's actually very positive .I just want a little more clarity about this game so I know if I can make requests or not myself. Tom has made things perfectly clear now. I think in the future he's open for extra functions and in the mean time is trying to concentrate on the essential Frontier stuff, just what I was thinking/wondering.

[KingHaggis]

Quote:
version 2.0: Crazy experimental shit like full 3d galaxy, owning a fleet of ships, walking on planet and all that stuff you dream of.
WOW! The future looks bright.

[Geraldine]

tomm wrote:
Of course, I'm a big hypocrite, since I spent today playing with planck's blackbody radiation equation with the intention of making a more realistic planet greenhouse gas model. But this stuff interests me, and doesn't cause a domino-effect reconsideration of already implemented game elements (or at least not much).
Tomm, you are amazing, I can't think of anything else to say,.......amazing!

[s2odan]

Uncle Bob wrote:
Pioneer is written in C++ right? I never had any conversion problems from float to int in C++. Maybe the float value is in a wrong unit? The whole thing still smells more like uninitialised variables, since the values don't seem to be consistent and pretty random.
Tbh I'm not sure, float related I should have said. I just don't understand why it works fine on the bulletin board, but not on the ship info screen. They both gather the data from the same place.Hmm... I seem to have fixed it I was typing this message while checking the code, Looks like the float value was in the wrong unit, silly typo/mistake.
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The thing with the messed up font (i showing as l) can be fixed by using this file:
My memory is shit I forgot that fixed it.
Tomm wrote:
and would prefer smooth development of missions and such like, as the game is really at the stage where real game content of this sort can be added.
I do plan to have a crack at some missions soonish, probably in the new year. But you know what its like when you get an idea

[KingHaggis]

Quote:
KingHaggis wrote:Pioneer is written in C++ right? I never had any conversion problems from float to int in C++. Maybe the float value is in a wrong unit? The whole thing still smells more like uninitialised variables, since the values don't seem to be consistent and pretty random.
LOL, I never said that. I wish I had a clue about C++ so I knew what the heck you're talking about .

[s2odan]

Typo from copying quote tags

[NewtonianFreak]

@ UncleBob :

Quote:
I can still call it a weak point because it was a weak point in Frontier, and I have yet to find a person that disagrees with that opinion, be it hard-core fan or not.
Hardcore fan, dreaming of a sequel since a decade, and I just love the UI in frontier/FFE : gives you every info you need, none you don't, leave a maximum of space for the 3D... I mean most other space games end up telling you that in the future people will use interfaces that will be lagging behind what you already have nowadays in an Airbus 380...EDIT : well, ok the infos you mentionned should be added, but I'd like to be able to turn all writings off when I just want to gawk at the 3D

[memnoch]

s20dan wrote:
I welcome someone finding some accurate figures, it would save me a lot of time and allow me to concentrate on the next step of this.
There is a computational search engine called Wolfram Alpha that can help you here. Entering "1 ton of air" will yield all sorts of useful info, including how much space it would take up, as both a sphere and a cube.

[s2odan]

Thanks Memnoch, it looks like that site will come in handy.

[DaveAngel]

Hi, First post on here, i love the idea of realism, but in order to keep things simple someone has already differenciated between Solid, Gas, Liquid, . Thats how things are done now, with container shipping.No reason why you cant fit (or rig) a ship to have tanks for Liquid and gas, but solids are generally transported in containers which are of a standard size.Of course, container shipping also puts up a new possiblity -> externally carried cargo. Not something that would work for atmospheric flight\re-entry, but could well work for station to station transport.If you want to carry large amounts of liquids or gasses, what about having to but an 'expandable tank' conversion, that rolls out into the cargobay? Alternativly, if you dont want to go do that route, liquids can be stardardised to, into barrels.

[highlander]

A flyable version of the Lynx Bulk Carrier from Frontier might be good, if you want to transport large volumes of gas/liquids...

[Geraldine]

Yes I am for the big Lynx too, but how do you get around the problem of docking the thing?

[DaveAngel]

Maybe you cant dock them, and i couldn't see you landing one either.But you could 'anchor' it off a starbase and use a shuttle/lifter tender to visit the facilities?

[s2odan]

Quote:
If you want to carry large amounts of liquids or gasses, what about having to but an 'expandable tank' conversion, that rolls out into the cargobay? Alternativly, if you dont want to go do that route, liquids can be stardardised to, into barrels.
I like this idea, perhaps every ship could start with a set amount of liquid storage which can be upgraded with equipment by sacrificing regular cargo space and mass. Things would be getting a little more complex by adding it in, but I dont think it would be beyond anyone playing Pioneer.I could have a go at adding this in if thats the general consensus. I'm sure I could manage that with my rudimentary skills
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But you could 'anchor' it off a starbase and use a shuttle/lifter tender to visit the facilities?
Thats what Im thinking with these massive ships for the regular stations. Also some stations could have docking ports for the massive ships, but only a few of the higher tech stations would be able to accomodate them.If I ever finish the giant sphere station I was playing with, then that could be a station type that can dock these giant ships. I think the doorway to the station is something like 20Km wide, so that would take a Lynx bulk cruiser

[ollobrain]

Large ships that could take ruidmentry colony stations out as part of a mission drop off supplies 1000 light years from earth and then depending on trade levels ( u can help build it up by brining stuff in) it would grow or wither and die. The new colonized system would then incorparate into the game world and generate missions dynamic political population and production status.And spread mankinds footprint out ( would add long term playability to the game) if the player could directly and indirectly throught their actions affect the game world

[s2odan]

That would be great, I've been hoping for a while that the .lua system would allow something like this.

[ollobrain]

im not much on programming but u could have a storyline-mission content ideas-creativitiy thread.The lua system sounds pretty flexible

[s2odan]

It is very flexible, there are just a handful of things that I don't know could be changed as they are hard-coded inside the .exe such as the system names, types and descriptions.But the game is still being made so changes could probably be made down the line to read the data from the lua over the hardcoded data.