Personally I prefer the Frontier weapon paradigm --laser beams of infinite speed (in game terms) -- to the slower, more blaster-like pulses in Pioneer.But Pioneer is what it is, and if the energy weapons must be slower pulses, then I wonder what would be necessary for that sort of combat to work for me? I'm not sure exactly, but here's are some observations.I DO like being able to aim and shoot with the mouse. That works for me, and it makes sense that heavier ships would turn more slowly.I like to have some power on the main engines (in set speed mode), so I can close on a hard-maneuvering enemy. I also keep my left hand by the IJKL keys to help dance around the enemy's fire. The Scanner helps with targeting as it computes lead. But I find that whole arrangement cumbersome, and my brain doesn't seem to be able to keep up with all the variables being juggled, because to be able to aim well means I have to focus on that one task and suddenly become an easy target. Here are my suggestions, though I don't know how well they'd work.1. Model (pricier) articulated weapons systems that have some ability to gimbal about and face a targeted enemy, like the chin gun of a modern attack helicopter. The pilot can keep the nose facing the enemy, the gun handles the fine aiming automatically. The heavier and more expensive, the better.2. Offer an evasion/combat autopilot module that provides certain modes, such as: - Random XYZ translations for spoiling the enemy's targeting solution, while the pilot is free to aim and shoot.- "Close/maintain/open distance to enemy" modes, to the limit of the ship's maneuvering ability. - Enhanced lead-computing reticles that simplify targeting. I don't mind shooting less, if my chances of hitting are improved.3. Offer new combat hardware, such as: - Additional turrets as found on the larger ships in Frontier, AI-driven unless the player hops into one for manual aiming (I loved that).- Retroreflectors that shine some fraction of the attacker's energy back toward them (though with slow laser pulses, this is not likely to yield a hit)- Sandcaster: clouds of optical countermeasures that, if you aren't thrusting, surround your ship and greatly diminish an enemy's incoming energy weapons (this was in the Traveler/Mayday RPG games).Space combat *should* be scary, and in my opinion realism trumps gameplay (to the extent that it enhances the game), but the super-slow energy bolts strike me as being both unrealistic and confounding, and feel out of place for the Pioneer universe. Perhaps the oldstyle instant-beam weapons could do far less damage, but easier to aim, while the slower pulses might be far more damaging but harder to employ? That way if you are skilled enough to get close you will be rewarded with a faster victory.As I said, I'm just thinking out loud, wondering if anyone has thought about these things. I don't want my post to sound like grousing, because it's not intended that way. Pioneer is pretty damn remarkable as a modernized version of Frontier.Thanks!
Combat musings
-
pebblegarden
- Private
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 6:42 pm
Combat musings
Please take the following as my own thinking out loud, and not as criticism of any sort. Pioneer has come lightyears since I learned of it last year, and I think it's an awesome team effort, and a labor of shared love. With that said, here goes:Try as I might, I can't really get comfy with combat as it exists in Pioneer. It was tough in Frontier, too, and always nail-biting in its unpredictable ferocity, but there at least you could see the laser beam and maybe dodge it. My favorite tactic was to load a Panther up with uber-shields and then use the two turrets to fight off any attackers, swinging my laser beams around and hoping I'd strike something. Ramming was not a bad tactic there, either. Personally I prefer the Frontier weapon paradigm --laser beams of infinite speed (in game terms) -- to the slower, more blaster-like pulses in Pioneer.But Pioneer is what it is, and if the energy weapons must be slower pulses, then I wonder what would be necessary for that sort of combat to work for me? I'm not sure exactly, but here's are some observations.I DO like being able to aim and shoot with the mouse. That works for me, and it makes sense that heavier ships would turn more slowly.I like to have some power on the main engines (in set speed mode), so I can close on a hard-maneuvering enemy. I also keep my left hand by the IJKL keys to help dance around the enemy's fire. The Scanner helps with targeting as it computes lead. But I find that whole arrangement cumbersome, and my brain doesn't seem to be able to keep up with all the variables being juggled, because to be able to aim well means I have to focus on that one task and suddenly become an easy target. Here are my suggestions, though I don't know how well they'd work.1. Model (pricier) articulated weapons systems that have some ability to gimbal about and face a targeted enemy, like the chin gun of a modern attack helicopter. The pilot can keep the nose facing the enemy, the gun handles the fine aiming automatically. The heavier and more expensive, the better.2. Offer an evasion/combat autopilot module that provides certain modes, such as: - Random XYZ translations for spoiling the enemy's targeting solution, while the pilot is free to aim and shoot.- "Close/maintain/open distance to enemy" modes, to the limit of the ship's maneuvering ability. - Enhanced lead-computing reticles that simplify targeting. I don't mind shooting less, if my chances of hitting are improved.3. Offer new combat hardware, such as: - Additional turrets as found on the larger ships in Frontier, AI-driven unless the player hops into one for manual aiming (I loved that).- Retroreflectors that shine some fraction of the attacker's energy back toward them (though with slow laser pulses, this is not likely to yield a hit)- Sandcaster: clouds of optical countermeasures that, if you aren't thrusting, surround your ship and greatly diminish an enemy's incoming energy weapons (this was in the Traveler/Mayday RPG games).Space combat *should* be scary, and in my opinion realism trumps gameplay (to the extent that it enhances the game), but the super-slow energy bolts strike me as being both unrealistic and confounding, and feel out of place for the Pioneer universe. Perhaps the oldstyle instant-beam weapons could do far less damage, but easier to aim, while the slower pulses might be far more damaging but harder to employ? That way if you are skilled enough to get close you will be rewarded with a faster victory.As I said, I'm just thinking out loud, wondering if anyone has thought about these things. I don't want my post to sound like grousing, because it's not intended that way. Pioneer is pretty damn remarkable as a modernized version of Frontier.Thanks!
Personally I prefer the Frontier weapon paradigm --laser beams of infinite speed (in game terms) -- to the slower, more blaster-like pulses in Pioneer.But Pioneer is what it is, and if the energy weapons must be slower pulses, then I wonder what would be necessary for that sort of combat to work for me? I'm not sure exactly, but here's are some observations.I DO like being able to aim and shoot with the mouse. That works for me, and it makes sense that heavier ships would turn more slowly.I like to have some power on the main engines (in set speed mode), so I can close on a hard-maneuvering enemy. I also keep my left hand by the IJKL keys to help dance around the enemy's fire. The Scanner helps with targeting as it computes lead. But I find that whole arrangement cumbersome, and my brain doesn't seem to be able to keep up with all the variables being juggled, because to be able to aim well means I have to focus on that one task and suddenly become an easy target. Here are my suggestions, though I don't know how well they'd work.1. Model (pricier) articulated weapons systems that have some ability to gimbal about and face a targeted enemy, like the chin gun of a modern attack helicopter. The pilot can keep the nose facing the enemy, the gun handles the fine aiming automatically. The heavier and more expensive, the better.2. Offer an evasion/combat autopilot module that provides certain modes, such as: - Random XYZ translations for spoiling the enemy's targeting solution, while the pilot is free to aim and shoot.- "Close/maintain/open distance to enemy" modes, to the limit of the ship's maneuvering ability. - Enhanced lead-computing reticles that simplify targeting. I don't mind shooting less, if my chances of hitting are improved.3. Offer new combat hardware, such as: - Additional turrets as found on the larger ships in Frontier, AI-driven unless the player hops into one for manual aiming (I loved that).- Retroreflectors that shine some fraction of the attacker's energy back toward them (though with slow laser pulses, this is not likely to yield a hit)- Sandcaster: clouds of optical countermeasures that, if you aren't thrusting, surround your ship and greatly diminish an enemy's incoming energy weapons (this was in the Traveler/Mayday RPG games).Space combat *should* be scary, and in my opinion realism trumps gameplay (to the extent that it enhances the game), but the super-slow energy bolts strike me as being both unrealistic and confounding, and feel out of place for the Pioneer universe. Perhaps the oldstyle instant-beam weapons could do far less damage, but easier to aim, while the slower pulses might be far more damaging but harder to employ? That way if you are skilled enough to get close you will be rewarded with a faster victory.As I said, I'm just thinking out loud, wondering if anyone has thought about these things. I don't want my post to sound like grousing, because it's not intended that way. Pioneer is pretty damn remarkable as a modernized version of Frontier.Thanks!RE: Combat musings
pebblegarden wrote:
Please take the following as my own thinking out loud, and not as criticism of any sort. Pioneer has come lightyears since I learned of it last year, and I think it's an awesome team effort, and a labor of shared love. With that said, here goes:
I'm not going to address all of this post. I don't have a great many opinions on combat, other than it is something I avoid if possible.
Quote:
Personally I prefer the Frontier weapon paradigm --laser beams of infinite speed (in game terms) -- to the slower, more blaster-like pulses in Pioneer.
As do I, although there are good reasons for the switch. The reasons pertain to gameplay; in the end it was an arbitrary choice, but the choice was made. John Jordan could probably elaborate on the reasons. He can be found on IRC.
Quote:
1. Model (pricier) articulated weapons systems that have some ability to gimbal about and face a targeted enemy, like the chin gun of a modern attack helicopter.
I like this idea a lot. Its implementation is dependent on the addition of turrets, because it actually is a specialised turret. Expect to see something like this appear once turrets are coded up.
Quote:
Additional turrets as found on the larger ships in Frontier, AI-driven unless the player hops into one for manual aiming (I loved that).
Expect to see additional turrets in the future. All the code is basically a few ideas in somebody's head right now, but this feature is something that the devs would like to see. Not just for parity with Frontier, but because it's awesome.Don't expect AI control, though. Expect to have to hire crew, and expect to find some better than others at hitting their targets.
RE: Combat musings
Quote:
Don't expect AI control, though. Expect to have to hire crew, and expect to find some better than others at hitting their targets.
I think he was thinking design-related, not meta. I.E. all's fine as long as we don't have to aim the bloody things ourselfes anymore...
(provided my gunners aren't retarded enough to cut up my own hull. It was scary enough when I was doing that myself, I couldn't sleep anymore if I always had to wonder wheather or not my goons are going to cut my ship up by accident.)-
fluffyfreak
- Private
- Posts: 1292
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:55 pm
RE: Combat musings
Brianetta wrote:
Don't expect AI control, though. Expect to have to hire crew, and expect to find some better than others at hitting their targets.
Any reason not to have AI control? At least as an option. Buying a range of different battle computers from the basic target+shoot through to auto-target+shoot+aim-respectably would also seem reasonable.
RE: Combat musings
fluffyfreak wrote:
Brianetta wrote:
Don't expect AI control, though. Expect to have to hire crew, and expect to find some better than others at hitting their targets.
Any reason not to have AI control? At least as an option. Buying a range of different battle computers from the basic target+shoot through to auto-target+shoot+aim-respectably would also seem reasonable.
We like the idea of crew. (-:
-
pebblegarden
- Private
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 6:42 pm
RE: Combat musings
Brianetta wrote:
We like the idea of crew. (-:
I also like the idea of having to hire crew, especially if they are of variable quality and have some personality.I am amused that the Pioneer page now has the subheading "A game of lonely space adventure", which is very true. I felt the same way about Oblivion (the Bethesda game, which I always saw as "Frontier with swords and horses"). Although there are plenty of NPCs running about, you're usually questing alone. That's why I liked getting a thane to accompany me in Skyrim. I have always wanted to play the Elder Scrolls games with a friend cooperatively (a far more modest request than a full blown MMORPG), but the presence of an NPC fellow traveler was just enough to lessen my craving so it wasn't an ache anymore.It'd be nice if somehow we could get Lydia the Thane in Pioneer. Having crew is a big step in that direction. Perhaps they come with checkered pasts, and hiring the wrong person could land you in hot water with another faction. The real trick is to convey these things without having to add anything to the existing game/UI, or as little as possible.Just musing, somewhat off-topically.
RE: Combat musings
I played a lot with Frontier ...I see great potential in the pioneer, and because it is under construction, I would like to make my contribution.As for the crew, while rates in the frontier there were 4 / month for the recruitment of staff, if I remember correctly (5,10,15,20) without there being a real "on ".... In the pioneer would be nice, as regards the fight and management hyperdrive, the crew is also divided according to the task and paid according to "merit points", ie there is a proportion of monthly cost and efficiency. the more you pay the staff more accurate pointing of lasers and missiles, or the speed of the ship.
RE: Combat musings
OK, here's some questions:1. Should we be holding the fire button down continuously or going for single shots?2. Should we be firing at the extended cross on the target or the target itself?3. Can we _please_ have some audible/visible feedback on our efforts?I only ask because I just don't get it at all . . . I have no idea where my yellow bottle-tops are landing, but I'm pretty sure the target has moved before they get there!
RE: Combat musings
m4r35n357 wrote:
OK, here's some questions:1. Should we be holding the fire button down continuously or going for single shots?
Continuous when you think you've got a good chance at hitting. You'll be lucky to get above a 20% hit rate. Just keep an eye on your weapon temp.
m4r35n357 wrote:
2. Should we be firing at the extended cross on the target or the target itself?
The extended cross hair. Though not directly at it as it doesn't include the target's acceleration. This takes quite a bit of trial and error to get a feel for when and where to aim.
m4r35n357 wrote:
3. Can we _please_ have some audible/visible feedback on our efforts?
There is audio feedback when you score a hit. It sounds the same as when you get hit.You can also buy a radar mapper for your ship which will show the current state of your target's shields and hull.
m4r35n357 wrote:
I only ask because I just don't get it at all . . . I have no idea where my yellow bottle-tops are landing, but I'm pretty sure the target has moved before they get there!
I describe what works for me here.
RE: Combat musings
Ziusudra wrote:
I describe what works for me here.
Hmm, thanks for the tips, but still no joy, I think it's about a year now since I was last able to shoot anything in this game . . . shame really. I'm surprised and disappointed that it's not more of a priority to sort this out.
RE: Combat musings
m4r35n357 wrote:
I'm surprised and disappointed that it's not more of a priority to sort this out.
Its not more of a priority because right now there's so few ways to get into combat. Once we have a proper ability to intercept another ship (AI and player) then there will be more opportunities for battle. That will give players and devs alike true experience with the combat system and from there the community can begin to develop strategies and the devs can tweak things to make it all nice and good.That intercept mechanism (in-system FTL jumps) is currently being designed. Hopefully we'll see the beginnings of an implementation within the next couple of months. Unfortunately these things take times when you have small amounts of volunteer manpower.
RE: Combat musings
robn wrote:
m4r35n357 wrote:
I'm surprised and disappointed that it's not more of a priority to sort this out.
Its not more of a priority because right now there's so few ways to get into combat. Once we have a proper ability to intercept another ship (AI and player) then there will be more opportunities for battle. That will give players and devs alike true experience with the combat system and from there the community can begin to develop strategies and the devs can tweak things to make it all nice and good.
Thanks for the reply, as I said on IRC I'll give it a go with the mouse (yuck) to see if it's a joystick thing. Then I'll try lowering the AI intelligence . . .
RE: Combat musings
robn wrote:
m4r35n357 wrote:
I'm surprised and disappointed that it's not more of a priority to sort this out.
Its not more of a priority because right now there's so few ways to get into combat. Once we have a proper ability to intercept another ship (AI and player) then there will be more opportunities for battle. That will give players and devs alike true experience with the combat system and from there the community can begin to develop strategies and the devs can tweak things to make it all nice and good.That intercept mechanism (in-system FTL jumps) is currently being designed. Hopefully we'll see the beginnings of an implementation within the next couple of months. Unfortunately these things take times when you have small amounts of volunteer manpower.
daccordo!però c'è da tenere in considerazione che è bene tenere vivi gli argomenti..... da idea, anche se fantasiosa, nasce idea. ed è di stimolo per tutti Perchè invece di seguire con la nave, non si lanciano dei droni che seguono l'avversario (come i missili) e nell'avvicinarsi cominciano a sparare laser? visivamente dalla nave i laser lanciati sarebbero di grande effetto!Si potrebbero mettere anche droni di difesa che intercettano il drone d'attacco. però il combattimento attivo risulterebbe poco impegnativo ma sarebbe più una guerra tattica.droni con vario raggiodroni con laser di diverso kwdroni con / senza equipaggiodroni con "energie bomb" che in frontier era l'arma di attacco / difesa più efficace Ci sarebbe una vasta gamma e libera fantasia di tattiche.Avete mai visto le battaglie del cartoon macross? Sarebbe una cosa sensazionale!:oops: Chiedo scusa, ma più che qualche strana idea io non sò fare. i'm not a informatico
RE: Combat musings
Yes I'm afraid I'm having trouble with combat too. I deliberately took a mission carrying a passenger who told me they were being followed by an assassin. So I save the game so I can keep re-playing for practice. After numerous attempts I'm not getting far. I'm lucky to even land a hit. I've even resorted to mouse control which is definitely better for aiming. I've tried a front and rear mounted gun so I can try and fly away while shooting.I think I actually prefer the cannons to (Frontier style) lasers, and in fact the combat seems very much like it would be if you were in a real life space dog fight, which I would expect to be quite hard. But the AI just punishes you over and over again, and I spend most of the time dodging incoming fire. I would be intersted to see how it would be to dog fight in Pioneer with another human player. But obviously I'm not expecting that to happen.
RE: Combat musings
See the thread "couple of issues" ... I've been trying to make changes to the weapon code, but can't seem to get the game to compile on my machine, so the attempt is currently depending on someone else to compile the code for me. Anyway, a few minor changes will get the weapons fire looking like weapons fire, instead of looking like somebody jettisoned a bunch of neon sign parts (without going to the speed-of-light beam weapons of the original Frontier/FFE).Anyway, yeah, agree there is a problem ... first problem is shot speed. (Nobody builds a weapon that fires slower than the target can move ... it's like launching a glacier at a fighter aircraft.) Once that is fixed, tweaking damage and then adjusting the AI so it behaves reasonably are next.
RE: Combat musings
You only have to hit a fighter aircraft with a glacier once.
RE: Combat musings
Ron wrote:
Anyway, yeah, agree there is a problem ... first problem is shot speed. (Nobody builds a weapon that fires slower than the target can move ... it's like launching a glacier at a fighter aircraft.) Once that is fixed, tweaking damage and then adjusting the AI so it behaves reasonably are next.
There is the very real prospect that the way we do combat is fundamentally wrong and can't be fixed by mere tweaks and adjustments. A deep analysis of combat and its related mechanics needs to be done first. We've had discussions about some of this, but we're not finished and haven't got any code yet. This is why I'm personally loathe to change just a few numbers without reference to the broader context - its unlikely to really achieve much.
RE: Combat musings
Question from 4 money .... And 'possible to hook a fire commanded by the CPU to a missile? I'd really like to know whether the missile fired at the target .
RE: Combat musings
You don't hit a fighter with a glacier. If a fighter hits a glacier, it's because the pilot was asleep. Not a good damage model ... attack tortoises, remember?Seriously ... yeah, fundamental issues ... I agree. However, fundamental issues have to start somewhere.I've done some game modding before. I've seen how the formula for making fundamental changes works. First, you get one thing that you need, and nail it down. If it's realistic damage from a type of projectile, or physiology of the target, or what weapons fire should look like ... doesn't matter, as long as that's your starting point. I figured, for a classic sci-fi look, shot speeds are a good thing to lock down first - there's general consensus in the movie world on roughly how fast weapons fire needs to be, in order to hit a target (which is not too far off of the real-life mechanics on how fast a weapon must travel relative to its target). So we nail that down, step one. Test it, make sure it looks good. (Not saying it could never be changed after this, but it at least needs to be in the ballpark before we can move on.)Step two, decide on a reasonable damage mechanic. This is much more subjective, depending on what we're wanting to simulate ... if you're talking modern aircraft, then are you simulating machine guns or cannon? Are we talking lower rate of fire but one-shot kills on light fighters? Or something more in the "spray with small-caliber ammo" department? Or something in-between. Or some of each, depending on weapon? (No reason we can't have both. The real world has both and everything in-between.) Since it's subjective, I figure to try something and see how everybody responds ... either way is fine with me, as long as it balances between damage and rate of fire as something playable and not just frustrating. Still, this part of the mechanic needs to be nailed down next, because it's an arbitrary decision, and because number of hits a craft can survive and how long it takes to fire that many shots are easy numbers to manipulate. With the shot speed already decided, this is now a manageable factor. (If you try to do shot speed, rate of fire and damage at the same time, it's too darn confusing.)Step three, balance the AI until it has abilities roughly equivalent to a human player, particularly in the department of accuracy. Since we can test this pretty easily - if you can hit them as easily as they hit you, it's about right - this is probably best saved for last and used as the balancing factor. With those other values set, this one just impacts difficulty. This could be step 2, if you prefer to work that way, but either way - it needs to be done off of a simple test, so the AI more or less matches human skill, plus or minus a little for managing difficulty level. (Incidentally, step two might need to be revisited immediately after these changes ... but a little of that is unavoidable.)Step four, add in the details like missiles and ECM, tweak shield power and recharge rate, and all that other stuff that is necessary but not fundamental to the model. With the main gun vs. ship mechanic worked out, this other stuff will be easier to balance as well.The alternative to this kind of step-by-step approach is to try to make fundamental changes by randomly changing one factor then another, until you either get lucky and hit on something that's playable, or get frustrated and give up (usually the latter). Because you can't solve a six-variable equation by just plugging in some numbers for some of the variables and seeing what happens - you'll get an answer, but it won't be the one you need. You have to eliminate some variables.But without a good combat mechanic - i.e. as stated, it has not been a priority - the game is not really playable. The two most basic things that happen are the economy and the flight/combat mechanic, and without the latter feeling pretty good, the game can't really be play-tested. I would really like to see this project up and running, just because I was a big fan of Frontier/FFE and have been so disappointed with the flight dynamics of pretty much everything else out there... which is why I volunteered to help. In that sense, I fully agree that fundamental changes are needed ... I'm trying to make them. I'm generally good at working out stuff like this ... but I'm no programmer (nor am I trying to make any kind of a name for myself as one - once the part I can do is together, it's all yours ... I'm not trying to get my name in the credits), so I have to have some help to do it.Now, is everybody with me? Or are you all just going to keep talking about needing fundamental changes but not doing anything about it? Because, honestly, a person could talk about this in theory until we all die of old age and nations start producing real starfighters, and never come to a conclusion ... I've seen this conversation before. If you want progress, we need to start making changes, systematically, until we narrow the problem down to something that's manageable.
RE: Combat musings
Ron wrote:
Now, is everybody with me?
You're clearly hoping to drive this forwards. To do that, though, you're going to need to take a leading role, and that really means getting your development environment together. If you can't do it with Microsoft's tools, consider using free tools instead.