Great project! Some Newb questions

[Uxi]

Been playing V20 for a couple weeks and lurking for about the same time but finally took the plunge to reg to chat about my thoughts and experiences.I love hard sci-fi and while I enjoy military-style and action shooters and all that, Pioneer is definitely satisfying my hard sci-fi itch more than anything since Elite and answering the extreme disappointment I felt with Star Trek Online. Love the reaction mass that was added in A20, as well. Being a fan of hard sci-fi, I do wish we could head back towards Elite-style lasers instead of the pulses, but that's more of a minor nitpick given the Newtonian physics are great! Speaking of which, has thought given to having it atmosphere flight be less Newtonian and more aerodynamic, at least basic lift/drag if not weather? I think my biggest hope is that scientific missions get added to the bulletin boards. Charting missions (stellar, planetary, geographical, etc) could occupy a good amount of time for those so inclined, if not also a bit deeper into things like solar activity, planetary tectonics, if not a bit weirder like more exotic sci-fi phenomena. I might be one of the few geeks who want to study the sunspots and prominences on Sirius, though. Are there plans to add online presence? Will/can it scale to a persistent/shared world so friends could come on? Obviously full scale MMO/clustering would be ideal but I recognize that would be a much larger scope. If I could plop a server instance and invite a friend or two to fly around and cross paths or team up, that would be good enough for my purposes. My programming from undergrad is really rusty since I've been working in sysadmin/ops but I'd love to contribute wherever possible. Just wanted to thank everyone for the work done so far and look forward to what's in store.

[Luomu]

Uxi wrote:
I think my biggest hope is that scientific missions get added to the bulletin boards. Charting missions (stellar, planetary, geographical, etc) could occupy a good amount of time for those so inclined, if not also a bit deeper into things like solar activity, planetary tectonics, if not a bit weirder like more exotic sci-fi phenomena. I might be one of the few geeks who want to study the sunspots and prominences on Sirius, though.

This will happen faster if you write some missions yourself. They are all Lua scripts, you maybe learn how they work from this page and examining the existing scripts under the data/modules folder. If you need some new scripting API functionality you can request it.
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Are there plans to add online presence? Will/can it scale to a persistent/shared world so friends could come on? Obviously full scale MMO/clustering would be ideal but I recognize that would be a much larger scope. If I could plop a server instance and invite a friend or two to fly around and cross paths or team up, that would be good enough for my purposes. My programming from undergrad is really rusty since I've been working in sysadmin/ops but I'd love to contribute wherever possible.

Frontier relies heavily on time acceleration, and that just wouldn't work very well online (just think about it for a moment). So, multiplayer in the classical sense is straight out. Some sort of limited online elements (online scoreboards, getting bulletin board news online) have been talked about but this is only at the "wouldn't it be cool if..." stage.

[Uxi]

Luomu wrote:


Uxi wrote:
I think my biggest hope is that scientific missions get added to the bulletin boards. Charting missions (stellar, planetary, geographical, etc) could occupy a good amount of time for those so inclined, if not also a bit deeper into things like solar activity, planetary tectonics, if not a bit weirder like more exotic sci-fi phenomena. I might be one of the few geeks who want to study the sunspots and prominences on Sirius, though.

This will happen faster if you write some missions yourself. They are all Lua scripts, you maybe learn how they work from this page and examining the existing scripts under the data/modules folder. If you need some new scripting API functionality you can request it.
I'm going to look into that. Thanks!
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Quote:
Are there plans to add online presence? Will/can it scale to a persistent/shared world so friends could come on? Obviously full scale MMO/clustering would be ideal but I recognize that would be a much larger scope. If I could plop a server instance and invite a friend or two to fly around and cross paths or team up, that would be good enough for my purposes. My programming from undergrad is really rusty since I've been working in sysadmin/ops but I'd love to contribute wherever possible.

Frontier relies heavily on time acceleration, and that just wouldn't work very well online (just think about it for a moment). So, multiplayer in the classical sense is straight out. Some sort of limited online elements (online scoreboards, getting bulletin board news online) have been talked about but this is only at the "wouldn't it be cool if..." stage.
I could see forcing it to slow down if you encountered another player like it does already but once they were away from each other that would definitely get problematic. Could perhaps introduce a 'relativity' concept but that stuff makes my brain hurt. Probably best to remove the time acceleration concept and instead give people things to do to pass the time during a trip in MP mode. Optimize your course/orbital transfer. "Netrunning" or starmaps, balancing the books and/or planning your next commodities trading (even better something I noticed when noting down the commodity pricing, this could get recorded each time you visit some place , though an economics model/scripts could make adjustments so it's not always static), studying a star, etc. Perhaps tying into the above science missions. Single player mode would stay as is. Definitely deviates to a project fork/new project. Thanks for the perspective. I had forgotten how integral the acceleration is to the interplanetary travel.

[Styggron]

Some great suggestions there.I LOVE the idea of scientific / charting missions. It could be out in a far sector and to visit each planet do some orbits and collect data about them so it would add to the ship database. In fact you might even be able to "buy" databases or enhance your "standard" one yourself perhaps.I LOVE the idea of possible weather on planets and an aerodynamic flight model when in planetary atmosphere.I think I'll have a look at the scripting as well to see if I can write a mission......I doubt I can but I'll give it a go.

[Uxi]

I think the best reason for these sorts of missions is they can be done anywhere. We do charting and recharting and studying our own planet and star all the time! Confirming orbits, rotations, geological/geographical/tectonic activity. Weather, etc. Hell just doing star charts. Limitless possibilities anywhere and everywhere. This is the single biggest disappointment for me in STO. I don't expect any veneer of science in Star Wars Galaxies or The Old Republic, but any Star Trek game should definitely have it. Being hard sci, means we would have less technobabble and more real science behind it in something like Pioneer!

[robn]

Uxi wrote:
Probably best to remove the time acceleration concept and instead give people things to do to pass the time during a trip in MP mode.
Without time accel you're spending days of real time in transit from jump exit to station, and sometimes weeks to complete a hyperspace jump. That's unacceptable, so you have to devise a mechanism to speed up travel that can be applied to all players without screwing up the clock or breaking the game mechanics. You'll end up with a very different game after that.

[fluffyfreak]

Luomu wrote:


Quote:
Are there plans to add online presence? Will/can it scale to a persistent/shared world so friends could come on? Obviously full scale MMO/clustering would be ideal but I recognize that would be a much larger scope. If I could plop a server instance and invite a friend or two to fly around and cross paths or team up, that would be good enough for my purposes. My programming from undergrad is really rusty since I've been working in sysadmin/ops but I'd love to contribute wherever possible.

Frontier relies heavily on time acceleration, and that just wouldn't work very well online (just think about it for a moment). So, multiplayer in the classical sense is straight out. Some sort of limited online elements (online scoreboards, getting bulletin board news online) have been talked about but this is only at the "wouldn't it be cool if..." stage.
I always though CO-OP made the most sense, multiple players aboard a single ship. Manning turrets, deploying chaff/decoys, plotting route jumps, balancing shields vs weapon power, perhaps manning remote drones etc. Require some serious dev work but made more sense than online scoreboards.

[Marcel]

Quote:
Without time accel you're spending days of real time in transit from jump exit to station, and sometimes weeks to complete a hyperspace jump. That's unacceptable, so you have to devise a mechanism to speed up travel that can be applied to all players without screwing up the clock or breaking the game mechanics. You'll end up with a very different game after that.
As an example, I just flew from Neptune to Uranus. There's noplace to buy fuel there, so I brought along a ton of water to refuel. I discovered that one ton isn't enough to fill the tank of a Cobra mk3. It barely registered on the gauge. I coasted from Uranus to Saturn at around 100km/s to save fuel. I got there OK, but it took about a year of game time. I don't think that'll work very well in a multiplayer game.

[robn]

fluffyfreak wrote:
I always though CO-OP made the most sense, multiple players aboard a single ship. Manning turrets, deploying chaff/decoys, plotting route jumps, balancing shields vs weapon power, perhaps manning remote drones etc. Require some serious dev work but made more sense than online scoreboards.
I was thinking about it this morning, but I honestly can't see there being enough interesting things to do to make people want to keep playing. Maybe there's enough depth if we turned it into "ship engine room simulator" but that seems like quite a different game.

[Uxi]

robn wrote:


Uxi wrote:
Probably best to remove the time acceleration concept and instead give people things to do to pass the time during a trip in MP mode.
Without time accel you're spending days of real time in transit from jump exit to station, and sometimes weeks to complete a hyperspace jump. That's unacceptable, so you have to devise a mechanism to speed up travel that can be applied to all players without screwing up the clock or breaking the game mechanics. You'll end up with a very different game after that.
I suppose you're right. Possibilities:1) changing the STL model so it's a few orders of magnitude more efficient.2) turn based (sort of like X-Com) and time advances are coordinated by the server3) Multiple characters/ships so that you "switch" when one is 'stuck' in deep space. 4) Something else? Maybe the "space patrol" or Melnorme come by and offers you fuel? Don't have to say yes... 5) In system microjumps and/or emergency hyperspace beacon to summon help in a populated system. If out in unpopulated area it could indeed be awhile before anyone notices and/or can get out to you.Whatever method would only need to apply to the hypothetical MP mode. I'll content myself with thinking up science stuff while this whole concept of MP is pie in the sky.

[Styggron]

Oh goodness Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo not turn based...how I despise turn base.Happy with the scientific missions idea though, charting and exploring, orbiting a planet slowly to pick up data, the onboard computer could mark parts of the charted planet greeen so you know what you have done *and* if you time accelerated you miss out on getting all the features because some require user intervention thus meaning you have to spend time *doing* the charting.

[Styggron]

Uxi you have sowed the seeds to spark off some great ideas now.I have made a submission to github and now Scientific Missions along with member ideas are now a feature request on the Pioneer project.

[Uxi]

Nice! Thanks. Been a bit busier at work but hoping to looking into Lua this weekend.

[Overlord]

Sounds good, I'd be up for some of that.I must admit that one of my first thoughts with Pioneer was multiplayer. The idea of having other real players floating about somewhere is mouth wateringly brilliant. But no matter how much I think about it, there really is no way it can work, not the way we want it. Even without the time accel problem, you'd need insanely high numbers of online players to ever meet anyone by chance, and inevitably the game would end up a different game. I guess the next best thing is seriously clever AI. One thing I just though of.. Do the AI ships just spawn in a system or do they "exist"? I'm thinking that AI ships could follow certain paths and all be like NPC's.

[Ziusudra]

They mostly just spawn in the system. You can follow them from system to system, but they are not very smart about where they go.

[walterar]

There is a place where time does not exist. It is ideal for meeting friends. But of course, only be accessed through a stargate. That place is called Limbo.

[Potsmoke66]

Quote:
There is a place where time does not exist. It is ideal for meeting friends. But of course, only be accessed through a stargate. That place is called Limbo.

the problem has been discussed over and over on frontier forums, if or if not, if then how...my conclusion is that a simple dogfight will be possible, as long as the contrahents meet at the same place and restricted to use no or a fixed time acceleration.on the other hand i'm one of the defenders for a single player game.not because it can't be solved, because perhaps i wouldn't like it and i know i'm in good company with that.yes, the reason that we won't meet at all in a multiplayer game, is to me the most important.also because of the different character people have, multiplayer gamers are very different to single players, offens that most frontier-heads are straight single players*.the behave of some is what forces others to vomit. *interesting, the are usually even more kind, one could guess it should be vice versa because they stay always alone in front of their machines and must be very selfish.BUT i guess it's because we don't need so much confirmation.with exception for myself, i do need a lot of confirmation, because of my low selfrespect. a compliment a day is like heroin to me.

[fluffyfreak]

It's surprisingly fun thinking of ways to get multiplayer into Pioneer, better than doing my day job anyway So far I have:1) Co-op: Multiple players in one ship, take turns at flying/gunning/making-soup/etc.2) Co-ship: Multiple ships, but they're all identical and whenever one jumps, they all jump and arrive together in the target system, designate someone to control jumping or just really irritate each other buy jumping to another system when someones trying to land!3) Co-pirate: Todays the day to ruin someone elses day! Sit waiting patiently for someone to jump into a system, as they hyperspace too it you're copy of Pioneer joins their game as a pirate! Complete with jolly Roger flag to show that you're a human being out to ruin their day opt-in only.4) Co-miner: One of you is left on a planet to mine for resources whilst the other goes off and plays Pioneer, the mining machine can go faster, or slower... you might see the other player again but probably not.5) Co-conspirator: I haven't thought of anything for this one, but I want too because the name is ace! Andy-"I should be doing my day job"-Copland

[Overlord]

Ha Ha! I really laughed at number 4! By "left" you mean "abandoned" Advanced mining sim minigame?

[fluffyfreak]

@overlord,Exactly just you, a view from a fixed position on a single planet, mining, sometimes faster... sometimes slower... forever :DEDIT - I really like these slightly ridiculous multi-player Pioneer ideas actually, anyone got any more? The madder the better, but please, with just a grain of possibility too them please