Removing Elite/Frontier content

[Potsmoke66]

i guess truely from a certain point on it gets boring to struggle, that's said by me who loves to... i could (and i am) be angry (sad suits better), but ok, we can plea, beg, but certainly that won't change their decision.ok, we said that we didn't feel alright with it, and i guess in a quite unambiguous way (sometimes).it's not funny neither for me, but well, what can i do? please, let's face the facts before we go "crazy" or start to wish each ones dead. "...what can i do?" i can go on as i did, no one will or could hinder you or me from this.i can open a branch of pioneer (i guess) where we can use them still, it will be our/my duty then.where one or a group can continue to develop in a "different" direction, even if it's in a small range with very small steps. personally i see no problems of a lawsuit, but of course if i would go on with my FFE models in a branch of pioneer and not as a "mod", i will first be sure it's plain with Frontier.devs (might that means a second time, and if it needs a third time to be sure, i don't mind).as well as for the pioneer developers, but i guess i have their agreement. else you still have the right to veto. i know that some will miss the "elite content",if one knows it... --- to this Q, how Oolite get's around that,they didn't get around it, it was a change of acting of FD. as i asked a few years ago if it's plain to use the original geometry in pioneer, the answer was:"we would leave a bad taste in everybodys mouth..." but also i have to say that's only a spoken agreement, nothing that is written down somewhere.it won't protect me or give me the "right" to do it, tightly looked at it. ok, i can try and risk it, if i like to take this risk, that prob. tomorrow it would be a lawsuit.personally the situation is that i can't loose, i'm a "naked man" and a naked man can't be undressed.meanest what could happen to me (in all situations of life) is i get locked up, or get killed.latter won't happen, the first i don't fear of a lot. BUT,this is my descision, i can't demand that someone should risk his job or career prob.neither i like to demand that someone should risk his reputation. --- hey i can't type so fast.... yeah, let's bring down the government, tomorrow  first we have to get this right, right? --- however it wil turn out, i look at this "splitting" as a part of the "experiment".we don't agree with the "government"? ok. take a boat, sail down the coast and settle new.fortunately we have (cyber)space enough and it's not limited like room for living or food. to split or divorce is hard and hurts, no question, always, but if we are really that dissatisfied with the on-going,then we really have only one opinion. --- it has cost me nearly my lfe and mind to divorce from my wife,but i had to take a descision back then,either we had ended up in continuing endless fights and finally i would have hurt my daughter most with it, (meaner even, if you think about "tomorrow")or "i pack my bag and leave", not easy, but a descision had to be made.still my whole life is upsidedown, even five years later, i can't find no future for me,everything has gettin' a little senseless and i often say to myself, "be happy to be still alive at all". BUT i will never regret this descision, it was the right one for me and my little daughter, only this counts. to fall back to pioneer,i guess one had to be pretty sure before he likes to go in a own direction,but i'm here and i'm open for ideas. let's get constructive destruction and construction was my favorite game as a boy,but i guess i liked construction better, else i wouldn't have destructed. --- further how far a creative commons licence will work for us and if it can be changed to something more restricting, i will see.because i know some artists didn't feel well with it, it's not clear enough that the work shall not be marked as copyrighted.that we "artists" can decide about reselling and restrict it.and no third party can come along and makes it to their own,i know that Creative Commons have been "softened" to open the doors again for obscure companies which earn money with works they have no rights on. the "moiney machine" must live on, one could say. artists are dissatisfied with this, it's ok to copy, spread it, but to mark it as copyrighted?"sailing under a false flag"? "oh, we have the power and can bend law as we like" not a satisfying situation. as a example, nina paley made this fine movie "sita sings the blues".it was licensed like our project, nonetheless there was a lawsuit because of use of copyrighted content.(one has to say to this that this content was nearly lost before she digged it out)anyway it didn't belonged to her and she agreed only to claim CC for the visual work. nonetheless Sony (via a third party) steady claims copyright for the whole content, "we have the power...bla,bla" one could say.thus she decided to form a own group of artist and lawyers who will grant their rights will be respected.her (and of others) work can be spread freely and reselling is prohibited. creative commons is not the last word, to complicated and some are pretty sure only that complicated set up to keep this little doors open for the predators. we artist don't want a license we don't understand and where some have m,ore rights as others or where my right isn't clearly defined.short and prcise it has to be and no endless articles, if and how. it's NOT needed, likewise it's clear what means "thou shall not murder".but of course if you would leave it up to them they make a work of 100 books of it only to grant that some still can murder.

[Potsmoke66]

robn, are you sure you are no lawyer, "neither yes or no"that sounds very likely like one. take it easy  it's a NO from the side of pioneer developers, i guess that should be enough. what i do not understand is why it should be important to know what was the agreement between FD and pioneer, it won't matter i guess.it doesn't changes a thing, i understand well why you don't want to speak about details, i would say, i wouldn't have said it anyway. because it's not public business, one can say. --- tomm, you really think it was a mistake to allow me to copy/transscript frontiers models? for me it was no mistake, it was and is still my guide through modelling - well guess about that what you like fellows. but yes, i see it also in this way it's not essencial for pioneer, prob. essential for my models, but not for pioneer. ok, throw the dirt on me, lol it's like i said just a liitle sad that it didn't has worked out in a more peaceful way.words have been said that shouldn't have been.people insulted that shouldn't have get. all this only because of a few models and little else. one thing is sad also,pioneer doesn't "needs" either me (anymore?).and i have to say also i don't need what's ahead, it's not what i expect or need.not because i would be totally fixed on FFE models, but in all truely say, which was the last of my models that found a way to the release?it's to me obvious since long that i don't fit anymore. somehow i lost my job in this project, i could also say i have no right to "exist" anymore.sounds hard?it's hard.more hardness,it was a very special job i had once and i do liked it.something intermediate between a developer and a modeller, a helping hand if he wasn't to troubled in mind. but both decisions, to remove the LMR and elite content make me unemployed if not worse.i have no, absolutely no more existance in this project, for many reasons.don't denie this, because it's true, words can be made many, but what i feel won't vanish.it has started quite a while ago, differences are to big, a gap of which even i see it can't be closed again. i was worried about this "evolution", but i'm only one and unfortunatly not a type who commands or demands.my way of thinking and working is different, quite different.i'm a supporter character, i like to support, not to command, that works superfine on the construction site.i don't demand, i only say: "this is the goal, here are your tools, for questions you have me, the plan is on the table".all i have to do then is to play the role of the helper for the helpers, sounds a bit crazy, a helper for the helpers? as a foreman? yep.i lend them the tools, check if they have material enough to work and will carry the stuff to them when they need it,quite uncommon if you like to lead, but that's how i lead.in fact you could say my workers have done the cool jobs, while i did the stupid jobs, besides of having responsability and experience.(one often misinterpreted thing is that most guess if i'm responsible i have to control everything,that's quite wrong from my pov. you don't have to control and as more you do the less the workers have responsability,feel "mastered" and start probably to revolt or at least they wont work or work only with unwill.yes, i'm a "donkey" to, we are willing to do a lot, but as soon as we recognize that we been forced to, we stop workingand kick probably.) and one thing you can be pretty sure of folks, the workers would have gone through the fire for me... it has failed here, i don't like to go into details, simply it has failed. it has made me sad and mad, but it won't help to cry neither it helps to shout. --- it's no new thinking and such has worked always, what worries me sometimes, it seems to me such principles have been undermined by...phew, do i have enough space here for this?undermined by "theoretical qualities", some that stood in front and like to change this because they learned this and that in this and that business school.someone trained them to "people have to be lead in this and that way..." (as if we would be sheep or dogs) i have to say only the thinking, i mean the starting position is already wrong, "have to be lead" this is already the main problem i guess.they don't have to be lead, them are grown up men and can decide themself.if you give one the right to decide he will pay this back.otherwise as well. well to some of you fellows, meriocracy has never worked on the construction site for me, else i would have to command because usually i was oldest and most experienced. the only thing that has worked well for me was a sort of democracy, each should decide himself and has certainly the right to vote (would have, because if you have the right you use it rarely, strangewisely).some might think now that this must have been a "tohuwabohu", it wasn't, give a woman/man the right to decide and to vote, he will work bettermore even, you will be a star, they love you. but significant, even my father nearly lost his job in the age of 55 after a heart attack, he wasn't a comfortable one, and only really only the workers made it possible that he was re-engaged, the youngsters of the old "godfather" (those old industrial tycoons) had no sensibility for such and was trained exactly in this shitty way i described.but fortunately the whole factory knew who my father was and what he did for them. thats something that leaks nowadays extremely, respect.and it doesn't really doesn't means to speak easy, respect is something different.you can be very silent and a comfortable character but be completely respectless. hey, "satan" talks never loud you can be sure...he knows how to dress.he knows what is the manner needed in society.he really knows well how to bow. but that doesn't makes him to a friend of mine.prob. my "friends" are loud, they even fart loud, but certainly they are not respectless. you see respect has little to do with manners and vice versa.what helps if i call my black brother "brother", if i throw a stick between his legs next occasion, it helps a shit.manners help little, prob. to keep a cool head, but that's already all. and do they had a problem as we was snoring once in the npp in a large tube, after a "hard night"?no,they only said: "gernot take care, we can almost hear you in the control room snoring"i have to say it went to my bones, you can imagine, to see the "boss" (section mechanics) peeping into the tube.i won't have let that happen a second time (we chose a safer hideout ) nonetheless, if you look at "leibstadt" the npp is in a quite good condition, the work we did was of good quality.but leave the boys the freedom, they will pay this back. besides, of course i was a sort of a "long time member", controlled they have my work rarely, it's exactly thisthey dont' had to control me, they knew "gernot does it right".might be he is loud, might be they are a hard to handle bunch, but we can be sure. else, imagine such a complex, giant and sensible organism, you can't control the work of each, it's not possible.if you like it or not, you will have to trust that they take this as serious as you did for yourself.

[Styggron]

"No FD didn't state that they had a problem, BUT they did want to do some kind of licensing deal." Finally something that makes sense and it is easy to understand.If this was told right from the start , it would prevent many arguments (most theories and half words and half ideas and half hints). As for me, I'm happy with the explanation. I guess it is time to close the thread and move on... My point exactly. it is time to move on.

[Styggron]

It never occurred to anyone that we didn't want to discuss it at all because it doesn't help anything, any other project, affect the outcome, or drag FD or ourselves into it any further? If someone goes and makes a mod with the FFE ships then our decision doesn't help them decide if they're legally ok or not.If another project is making a Frontier/FFE clone then our decision doesn't help them decide if they're legally ok or not. We were trying, very very very hard not to discuss it at all because there just isn't anything to discuss that isn't in that first post.We had some discussions, they (FD) were awesome, out of everything that was discussed this is what we're doing.That's all in that first post and it avoids going into what those discussions were about because they were done with a private company (FD) and what we discussed might not be something they'd consider for another project so it'd be massively rude, and dishonest, of us to expose it all. The more you guys pester us for more and more information the worse it been getting for us. I'd rather just be making the damned game  Everything has been clarified. I agree.... time to close the thread and move on.

[Potsmoke66]

tourist that's not a really big problem, we should have a little patience i guess. --- yes the "mods" is one of the best things that ever happened to it (everything has it's drawback). but sapog, i guess it can't solve all the differences in this community...that is, you spoke it out without a bad intention, already the idea of a "representative command". i feel some strongly dislike that and additionally i feel it's not "pioneer style".but of course i'm only gernot, i didn't started the project, i only "inherited" it. but to get this again to the point, my idea was the project should work like a arthropod,i can be wrong or looked at it from my specific view on it, yes. segments of a arthropod work autonomously, nonetheless"that thing finds food and shits"the head with the antennas gives of course the direction for this animal,but movement of the segments is not centrally controlled,something that has cybernetics surprised, how could that work?it's a rather simple rule in the case for the "doodah",as long as any leg of another segment is lifted, don't lift, in this manner the "doodah" marches on.it doesn't needs no brain to control this, that works autonomously without any control.the "brain" (as far as existant in case for the arthropod) controls only feeding and direction. now we have some really weird fellows on this globe (e.g. me)and they are convinced that this would be the far better "business model" as we have nowadays usually. eh, like i worked as "supporter" (construction worker, foreman), "the brain" is slave of the segments,"the brain" serves the segments and not vice versa.and if i look at this, only fair, because "the brain" takes profit of the movement of the segments enough.simply because it hasn't to do this itself, "the brain" can depend on the segments without control. the walk of the arthropod  --- so far to this idea i know, not the first time i brought up this idea,and i have been laughed for it, guessing how could such work in a project and if i'm such convinced it will work, why i don't go and do this myself.i have to say a very similar situation as when it's told to you tourist, you are free to develop your own pioneer. it's damned easy to say such from a throne. though all this what has happened back then and now, comes around, and that's only good. but it might take a little while "rome wasn't build in one day". neither the swiss founded their democracy in a 100years, it took quite longer.many changes, (r)evolutions, downfall and resurrecting all is part of such a evolution. if some swiss like that or not, without the napoleonic ages in switzerland it would never had turned to what it is now.streets have been plastered, hospitals build, schools build and a ordered school,by ordered i mean ordered, children have been taken with military forces to school,if the parents didn't wanted to understand what it is good for.which has lead to a higher level of education and only this has leaded finally to the nation you see now.people started to think different, humanism was born in french & germany,any human should have the same rights....U.S formed their nation and swiss copied the federal constitution from them.(who's IP is that, the fed. constitution? not so serious Q, doesn't have to be answered) a long, really a long way from those legendary (and they do are only legends) men who formed a union againstcounts who sucked the blood out of their venes. thus if i look sometimes at certain (r)evolutions i often think "you will have a long way to go"a "ordered" democracy can't work, it has to be into your flesh, this needs generations .(unfortunately else i would immediatly start a war like napoleon, but i know it can't work this way) the swiss could never imagine to participate with EU fully, that's because they are far to proud of their nation.but i feel that's right, you can be proud of it. only i would wish they would find back to the "pioneering spirit" of those days when they wrote down the constitution.instead only to wave flags senseless in the air, that doesn't makes switzerland to something special,waving flags is very popular all around the world.to popular. --- now don't say i should run for poiitics, that's impossible or near to, i'm unfortunately a foreigner.but as i say often, politics happen everyday everywhere, between you and me.

[Potsmoke66]

addendum or "nachtrag" i noticed the shiplist in the wiki if you like to be consequent, no Lynx!no LRC!no Lanner!andno Interplanetary Shuttle! all four ships are FD in design and name. please be consequent, if you removed my shit with this reason,do it for the rest as well! (btw, IP-Shuttle, Lynx and the conversion of "uncle bobs" Lanner was introduced by me, for the rest i have no responsability,if you had only a little respect you would have removed them already, but it seems you haven't.be as inconsequent as you like, but remove at least the ships i introduced to pioneer, not "we can use this one, because we have no replacement"this is miserable. really i wished you would have to get on last year with three or four ships without any of mine) and if you can't "live" without, then make your own! i would have a replacement for the "IP-Shuttle"it's called "Maneuverable Cargo Unit". especially the IP-Shuttle is 100% FE2 geometry, remove it! else it shows only one thing to me... at all i get the feeling this looks rather like... i have no right word for it ...just guess, the "natrix" is apart from the name far closer to the FE2 adder as my adder is,but to change a name would be a sneeze.seriously even my courier would be farer from FE2 if named different, as the natrix.i get the feeling this is really a rant against me since a long time.you said always "NO", but such shows exactly the opposite, the facts speak for itself.think and think for once what i must feel.(but sometimes i get the strong feeling that you only laugh about me, i hope it helps you)FD "didn't liked to leave a bad taste in everybody's mouth", but you leave for sure a very bad taste in mine. what feeling would such inconsequence leave in you?you would feel pissed off the same as i do, i'm pretty sure! 2nd interesting fact more ships of mine have vanished, i.e. the "Viper-X",neither name* or shape are FD, it was broken in textures since the stupid needless flipping of UV.but you removed this as well, reason? *besides no one can claim a copyright on a animals name, any of "Adder", "Viper", "Lion", whatever animal is legal.vipers i.e. exist many, from cars to planes and copters.one could copyright the design of such a name, but not the name of the animal itself.not even a "Mc" can be copyrighted as long as it's not used in conjunction with the double bow.you are even allowed to name your burgershop McMyshop, McDonalds clearly lost such lawsuits, against a smallnobody, at least here in good old switzerland, even a nobody has a right and mostly money didn't plays a role.simply because we have no jury which could be bribed to easy. i can only think this is clearly against me and my work and nothing else,i really get the feeling that your statements are untrue,at least by looking at such facts... --- oh, well and i guess the "lanner" on the badge will have to vanish as well (if you like to be consequent with removing elite content).it's a sprite of a FFE model which was made once for FFED3D by "uncle bob".it has found it's way into the game by me. i guess that didn't suits pioneer anymore, just as a X-Wing didn't suits it, right? --- the "WE" in pioneer has somehow turned to a "I"i have foreseen it i can say, but... well, not everybody hears the river talking as loud as me.

[fluffyfreak]

Calm down, they are going. There's a pull request at the moment for some things.You know this stuff doesn't happen in the blink of an eye.

[Potsmoke66]

oh, i'm not yet upraged a little bit...sad?frustrated? and evenconfused? doesn't matter much, i guess. ok, good you answered fluffyfreak, not that this was my intention.but well i guess i owe you something, if i know once what. at least, i didn't liked to make you angry, that was shitty of me.i had written a PM, but i didn't sended it  --- would green instead of red have made a difference?

[robn]

A lot of those (interplanetary shuttle, LRC, Lynx, Viper-X, etc) were removed a few weeks ago when LMR was removed because nobody converted them to SGModel.Lanner remained because jpab took the time to do a excellent conversion to SGModel. Its aready been removed on a branch, which will probably land on master today or tomorrow. We actually would have liked to keep it under a different name, but the model came from FFED3D and we can't find any licensing information for it, so it seems that we can't use it. The shape itself is not a problem, which is why it will remain on the badge (unless someone makes a new one).Natrix on the other hand was made specifically for Pioneer, and so naturally has a compatible license. It does not use any converted geometry. The fact that it has a similar shape to the Adder doesn't matter - its clearly not the same ship to anyone that compares it to the original Adder.And for your information, all of this was done without reference or thought to you. Nothing was done to screw you. That would suggest we actually care about you one way or the other, which we don't - we're 100% indifferent. If you want your work in Pioneer, do it the same way as everyone else - via a pull request. I doubt very much that any of this this will make a difference because I've said it before to no avail, but hey, at least its out there. Again.

[Potsmoke66]

it's as close to FFE as my courier i.e. or any other FFE ship unfortunately you can't see the the tail here... there is no licensing to FFED3D ships (guess why). finally, are you sure?i can't believe it sorry.the facts speak a own language. --- but it's useless to speculate or to enerve myself steady about the same old story.it really doesn't matter to me anymore.you go your way, i...let the tribbles grow out of the closet. --- it would be kind to contact "uncle bob", it's his modelbut the undercarriage is "mine", can i get it back?sorry. --- prob. i would have liked to participate with you further.certainly i'm not a bad modeller and have some experiences to share.but not in this way.it's not because of removing elite content,it's the how and foremost the how i (or my models) was treated.if there would be more transparency in the acting, ok. to me it was hurting, i say this again, to see most of my models broken,it's better they are removed as what i had to stand last year.because i could have talked and argumented how i like, i was always wrong.i'm often wrong, yes, but always can't be. it really started with the flipping of the UVand i knew and said back then that this will lead to a confusion.but i'm a idiot, i know. but yeah, i really wished also they would have never be seen in pioneer.you say it was not intentionally i say wrong, it was,the goal was clear with flipping of the UV, and badly maintained models,-with the stipulation i had to participate via github, which prob. would have worked.but computers broke, web access lost, of course i tried my best.but there was not much help, not as much as for others, why?-to me and if you can be real to yourself, for you to. to me, and you can say what you like, it was a "cheated" game.i had no chance to "win", not a single. (if winning is the right term here) to me it seems like someone was working steady against me.why, i never understood. this makes me really sad.

[sscadmin]

I will be closing this thread because this is a non-issue. Why?It's quite simple really, even in a open-source project you cannot blatantly copy likeness from a copyright IP unless there is written permission for these things to be in the core code, now nothing generally stops a modder from creating this after the the product has been released. But still the owner of the said IP can still come after you. Generally these companies do not because modding is a form of compliment to their work. But regardless of how much developers or the fans of Pioneer like Elite or Frontier, Pioneer should be its own creation. Having mods for various ship types or cities can come after the core game is generally core complete in the way of a conversion mod.People shouldn't get all bent out of shape over something as trivial as this, this is a direction move from the developers and fans to make the game their own and there is nothing wrong with that. Remember that Pioneer is inspired by Elite and Frontier, that doesn't me copy, it means that concepts are borrowed and that is about it. Plus, the devs and fans of Pioneer really do have the best opportunity to make a great game that could possibly have features other games don't have why not concentrate on making Pioneer a standout than a clone.But that is just my .02 on the matter.Closing this because after reading the devs and others comments they have explained themselves several times when there really doesn't need to have been done.