Elite Dangerous won't have offline mode

[Pinback]

Given your reward tier was supposed to give you access to a DRM free version of the game and given they seems to go[/url] the sane way regarding refunds, you have a good shot at getting your money back if you want to.Probably they had a chat with their lawyer and realized that what they are trying to do is illegal and are now trying to back peddle their way out of it. They should just offer a refund to those that want one. You can't imagine how sad I am with this move.I feel like an idiot having pledged £90 for an MMO... I mean for an MMO... I still can't believe it. :suicide: Same here would never have gone in for the £90 pledge if they had said it was just going to be an online game only, i would have split the money and back Limit Theory as well.Still not heard anything back from Frontier about this boxed edition.

[robske]

Probably they had a chat with their lawyer and realized that what they are trying to do is illegal and are now trying to back peddle their way out of it. They should just offer a refund to those that want one. Same here would never have gone in for the £90 pledge if they had said it was just going to be an online game only, i would have split the money and back Limit Theory as well.Still not heard anything back from Frontier about this boxed edition. My message to them after they refused my request for a refund: "Those who have already been playing the game online in the Alpha and/or Beta phases, regardless of whether they backed the project via Kickstarter or purchased access to Alpha and/or Beta through our online store, are not eligible for a refund."Please consult my provided info and the additional info in the links below:http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/defective-products/index_en.htm[/url] dutch language):https://www.consuwijzer.nl/thema/wet-oneerlijke-handelspraktijken[/url] laws apply to all European member states as they are european consumer protection laws. As far as I'm aware from your website, you're located in the UK, which makes these same laws also apply to your company. I don't want to be a big burden, so I provide all this information beforehand.It is a one-sided change of a sale agreement. That i've played the game for a bunch of hours doesn't invalidate the right to a refund according to the laws in this. Providing all the legal info they need, there's only one logical conclusion, and Pinback, you up there said it right!

[Vuzz]

... Very disapointed about thes news and about the future of ED , so i've ask today a refund for my preorder of the mercenary edition . I prefer waiting one or two months after the official launch to see what append to the Frontier studio.

[ExpandingMan]

I feel like an idiot having pledged £90 for an MMO... I mean for an MMO... I still can't believe it. :suicide: Perhaps this is a little premature? I am also upset by recent events, for sure, but there is still a single player online mode, and there is little stopping you from logging on and off as you please (i.e., not much in the game requires extremely long continuous play sessions). I would think this would primarily be a huge deal for those who don't have reliable internet connections. FD really screwed up, but isn't it a little too early to completely write off this game we've been waiting 20+ years for? I share the concern that they will focus entirely on PvP and neglect anything which can be done solo, but it's far from certain that that's going to happen. I mean, it's not like it's suddenly going to become a WoW PvP server.

[Pyros]

"No pay 2 win" isn't the same as "no microtransactions". They went for some sort of client/server architecture with the procedural generation, economy and mission handling done server side. NPC generation as well. You'd be basically visiting a static, lifeless sandbox. I believe them when they say that releasing a standalone offline version would be a lot of work. That's basically a new game to make, galaxy generation aside. However, a much simpler method would be to release the server's binaries, which they are reluctant to for questionable reasons. They can't be that big or require some kind of supercomputer to run (at least not with a single human player). Yes it probably would be a lot of work, but why should FD release the server binaries? AFAIK It incorporates a lot of proprietary tech that they spent tons of resources developing. And even so as the architecture is probably not a single server but quite a few role based servers interconnected it would require some development to cut that out from the current architecture to a single server based one. Perhaps this is a little premature? I am also upset by recent events, for sure, but there is still a single player online mode, and there is little stopping you from logging on and off as you please (i.e., not much in the game requires extremely long continuous play sessions). I would think this would primarily be a huge deal for those who don't have reliable internet connections. FD really screwed up, but isn't it a little too early to completely write off this game we've been waiting 20+ years for? I share the concern that they will focus entirely on PvP and neglect anything which can be done solo, but it's far from certain that that's going to happen. I mean, it's not like it's suddenly going to become a WoW PvP server. /agree Some (a lot?) of people are affected and they should be reimbursed of the money they spent on the final game (e.g. if a player purchased alpha access and accessed the game, in my book it forfeited any right to be reimbursed of the Alpha and beta cost). Sometimes people forget they are purchasing a product, not all the features of it. If the removal of a feature has a strong impact on the product then they are entitled to get their money back - and no true offline mode is bound to have a very strong impact on some people. But as long as FD delivers the product in working conditions it cannot really be considered defective. Btw, the game has just gone Gamma and it is lovely.

[Cody]

... the game has just gone Gamma and it is lovely. Yeah, it is... beautiful, in fact!

[SerialKicked]

@robske: I would be interested in reading the answer, if any. @pyros:Yes it probably would be a lot of work, but why should FD release the server binaries? AFAIK It incorporates a lot of proprietary tech that they spent tons of resources developing. And even so as the architecture is probably not a single server but quite a few role based servers interconnected it would require some development to cut that out from the current architecture to a single server based one. I was talking about the binaries, not the sources. Every executable ever sold contains mostly "proprietary tech", except pure open source software, ofc. Heck, the beta of the game i'm writing is 100% "proprietary tech". And the "tons of resources" they spent doing so was community funded, anyway. It's very unlikely they have a server for this and one for that. It's just not how it's done. Maybe the backend (behind the server the player is connecting to) consists of multiple modules and the server itself dispatch connections to each backend, but there's no reason it can't all run on a single machine, especially for a single client. They cannot be THAT bad at coding something, seriously. Also, what you're implying means they knew even before the kickstarter that the game wouldn't have an offline mode at all.

[Pyros]

@robske: I would be interested in reading the answer, if any. @pyros: I was talking about the binaries, not the sources. Every executable ever sold contains mostly "proprietary tech", except pure open source software, ofc. Heck, the beta of the game i'm writing is 100% "proprietary tech". And the "tons of resources" they spent doing so was community funded, anyway. It's very unlikely they have a server for this and one for that. It's just not how it's done. Maybe the backend (behind the server the player is connecting to) consists of multiple modules and the server itself dispatch connections to each backend, but there's no reason it can't all run on a single machine, especially for a single client. They cannot be THAT bad at coding something, seriously. Also, what you're implying means they knew even before the kickstarter that the game wouldn't have an offline mode at all. Well, PG techniques are supposedly one of the "hot" - if not "the hot" - technologies for game development for the next few years. And FD is banking on licensing the tech along with the Cobra tools, so probably they are pretty careful regarding the possibility of reverse engineering - of course I'm assuming that that tech is included on the server binaries, which is something that might not even make any sense. Regarding the server structure, AFAIK, current MMO architectures use multiple role based virtualized servers (e.g. authentication servers, "session/instance" servers, database servers, ...). IMHO I think there was not deception (intent) from FD, only substandard communication regarding this issue. Functions were developed for the multiplayer online context and became hard to recreate with quality for the offline. If it was easy to port for offline they would certainly do so, as they would have a lot to gain. But the above is, naturally, speculation on my behalf.

[SerialKicked]

(disclosure: procedural is what i did before my current game, I am not some pg guru, but i still know my way around it) Well, yeah PG is the new hot topic in a sense. But in themselves PG algorithms aren't that complicated, or at least, not that secret. Perlin/whorley noise, data driven algorithms, grammar based generation. All that stuff is freely available on wikipedia. It's how they're used that really matters and that's game dependent. As such, there's no real gain in reverse engineering the PG system behind E:D apart making another galaxy for E:D. And network code can be reverse engineered without access to the server exe/source (but with a lot of coffee). About the server, as I said, even if it's the case, no reason why it can't be bundled on a single machine. As they said themselves, "will you release server code if game dies?" "it's a likely possibility" (something like that, too tired to quote the exact lines, it's somewhere on this thread, or at least linked). IMHO I think there was not deception (intent) from FD I don't think either, but they knew quite a while ago, that's for sure. For a project of this scale, you don't just sit on your computer (all 20+ of you) to type lines of code. There's meetings, specs to design, plans are made and executed. The most likely "non conspiratorial" answer is that they got a bit scared, between the development cost, the deadline getting nearer and nearer, and a ton of content to add and bugs to fix, the offline thingy became some "i'm sure we'll find a way to shoehorn that somehow" mantra. Repeat it enough time and maybe it'll work. Never does, but everyone fall for it out of convenience once in a while. I realize, I may have come a bit aggressive on this topic, but I do respect the design choice (i don't think it'll work for more than a year or two, being generous, but it's only an opinion and i'd love to be proven wrong). My only complaint, even if I am not concerned as a consumer here, is the refund policy (and communication skills). This kind of behavior is bad for early funding in general, which is bad for indie devs in general too. You'd expect a more professional behavior from pros with 15 years or more spent in the industry.

[Pinback]

 You'd expect a more professional behavior from pros with 15 years or more spent in the industry. They have shown a complete disregard for the backer of the game and then to add salt to the wound with the arrogance of saying "no refunds" because you downloaded, what in is in fact nothing more than a paid for demo of an unfinished game. 

[Geraldine]

An online petition pushing for inclusion of an offline mode has started, details <here>[/url]

[Vuzz]

petition signed

[sscadmin]

I don't even think procedural generation for a game is even a argument point. Because the things that Limit Theory is doing with PG is simply amazing (nevermind No Man's Sky) and it is a SP game first and its a one man show (not a team of 20). I think this game could have easily accomplished both. I was probably like Pinback and I was waiting for Elite kickstarter to end and I missed out on Limit Theory kickstarter (I missed out on Elite because I didn't like all the talk of online mode). I am speaking just as a simple gaming fan in general, its irritating seeing your time and effort lost in server moves or shutdowns in a MMO, thats why I don't play them because eventually they will shutdown. I think not having a SP offline mode is a very valid argument especially in the context of Elite and I think the kickstarter would have not made its goal if it was stated from the beginning it was going to only have online modes. I mean E:D made 250k over their goal, that isn't much when you think about it, lets say 20 person team for 2yrs... heck that doesn't cover their salaries so now we know why Elite is being hurried out the door. Do I expect Star Citizen and Squadron42 to be released on time, no. Why? Because they have a lot on their plate and I honestly feel that Chris Roberts will take his time with his ultimate game and give the fans exactly what he has stated. Take your time FD and give the fans what they want and you will be rewarded.

[VonPaulus]

I wouldn't mind to wait for another year for an off-line mode... I've been waiting for a new Elite (no MMO) for far more...

[ExpandingMan]

the things that Limit Theory is doing with PG is simply amazing (nevermind No Man's Sky) Sorry to get off topic, but though I agree with you on Limit Theory, we know pretty much nothing about No Man's Sky. You can spend days hand-crafting two dozen plant and animal meshes, place them randomly and assign them random colors and call it "procedural generation". I'm not trying to claim that's what they are doing in No Man's Sky, but we have no idea what they're doing, we have seen very, very little of it. I suppose I just get kind of frustrated when they overshadow Elite and SC (both of which have a lot of impressive things implemented) with little more than a few pretty screenshots. I wish Hello Games all the best, but at the moment I have no reason to expect their game to compare to other upcoming projects like Elite, SC and Limit Theory.

[sscadmin]

Very good argument there ExpandingMan, Hello Games has certainly turned some heads with their project and I do hope it is truly PG as they claim. And getting back on topic, I know to probably create the universe that both Elite Dangerous and SC will need you will have to use PG to make it happen and create the sheer content that is needed to fill a gigantic universe such as these. We forget that sometimes games use PG to eliminate constructing sectors/planets/ships/stations by hand. So in a way using PG should have made it a bit easier for the team once the engine behind it all was in place (this is if my thoughts behind PG are correct). I know FD are trying to give us a 'living universe' feel for their game. And this same feeling could also be inserted into a SP online or offline model as well but on a smaller scale. Do I expect what is in a MMO version of Elite to be in a SP only Elite heck no and I would be foolish to think they could do that. I just think FD thinks that we expect the MMO in a SP experience and we don't

[Cody]

I think FD made two mistakes: to a certain extent, they over-promised and under-delivered (should be the other way round), and they definitely should've owned-up much earlier to their 'problems' with offline mode. Possibly sharp marketing - but who knows for sure? They have right-royally pissed-off some of their staunchest supporters, that much is certain!

[SerialKicked]

still off-topic, so i'll make it quick: About No Man's sky, their PG system was discussed at length in the #ProcJam event. There's[/url] a 4h long twitch stream saved here (they speak about it at around the 2 hour mark) It's a good video to watch for anyone interested in procedural stuff (the developer of Ultima Ratio Regum made an interesting talk too).

[VonPaulus]

 Do I expect what is in a MMO version of Elite to be in a SP only Elite heck no and I would be foolish to think they could do that. I just think FD thinks that we expect the MMO in a SP experience and we don't  Exactly. I was expecting a sandbox experience, that I could save and progress at my own pace.

[Geraldine]

Just my thoughts. There will be a whole bunch of reasons why they dropped offline mode for the first release, but I think once the game goes properly live and more people start playing it, Frontier will have a much better idea on how desirable an offline mode would be. Perhaps they need more sales to develop it after using up their dev budget on this first release? Certainly they had more expansions in mind further down the line, hopefully one of these could be the offline mode. With the game not even officially out yet its possible (especially with the reaction to the news of the dropping of offline) they don't want to make promises now that they might struggle to meet later. Basically then (in my view) I think it will depend on sales post release.