progress so far

[attachment=107:predator pre07.jpg]

That's looking good potsmoke.

yet another shot of my predator v0

[attachment=108:predator_pre09.jpg]

i will post this pre release here, it will be updated, a new version is in work, which will include some animations.

but to shorten the time meanwhile, this for you to try.

http://privat293.web.officelive.com/Documents/mercury_predator%20v0.zip

shipyard is very busy, three new ships under construction:

-cobra mk1

-laura blackbird

-e.y.e (a police vessel)

some standarts for modelers:

- basic scale, ~10x FE2/FFE (exactly 8.7x), models in this scale are compliant to meters in pioneer and have not to be scaled. one unit = 1m (vertex spacing, it's not exactly fe2, 1m would be 1.149 units). if you setup such a grid in your 3d modeling prog. you can exactly determine where you have to position sub models, thrusters, pos. lights and such things in the lua script.

- you can put assets of models for one model in to the mods folder. best if you setup a folder in mods named ships (leaves possibility for "buildings", or "general" (or others) folder, and into that you can drop the new ship into a separate folder named same as the model (just that you know what it is afterwards).

- for each material you like to set to your ship in pioneer, you will need a separate .obj file

- take the "Cobra MKIII" and my "Mercury Predator" as a guide, check how materials been specified and applied.

- example model script,

i hope this will help 😕

it looks more complicated then it is. 😉

pioneer is cool 😎

[attachment=109:predator_pre10.jpg]

Excellent work there potsmoke! 🙂 I kinda knew your first Pioneer ship would be an IC 😉 Lets hope others join in and contribute their models too.

tia, tia

two other models get released soon, one is already in my setup (e.y.e), but it isn't finished yet , ships specs have to be set properly at least (you might like to work on it yourself maybe) and the texture isn't shown correct in pioneer (i have no idea why in blender it's placed ok, but in pioneer it gets partwisely smeared). the other is a cobra mk I, which i started to figure out the scale and vertex spacing of pioneer, i will upload it soon as the script for the model is (at least roughly) finished. also the eye will get a proper script and i would like to see the possibility to set a "unique" police vessel in the script, it would be great if you could specify a separated model only for the police to define a special skin and the flashing blue and red lights. additionally this CW culling in pioneer gives me a liitle problem and many programs like blender work allways with double sided polys so you won't see the winding order, this makes some parts of my models "invisible" or inverted, i have to fix that, but like i said, hard if you don't see and i have to load the .obj to a simple viewer to "see" the culled polys. sadly i haven't found a flip poly command in blender (maybe becaus blender didn't mind), so i will have to re-edit it in another program.

hint for blender users, you will have to edit your models .obj to make it work for pioneer.

you can open them with worpad or so and check that all material and object names are as you set them (the output plugin produces sometimes a mess), open also the .mat file and check the listing of materials used, maybe you like to use only one for all .obj, take "Mercury Predator" as example. also i splitted the model into separate .obj files to allow different materials specificated for them in the .lua script.

You can use many cad programs to create wavefront objects, for beginners i still recommend old free Z-Modeler 1.7. even if you can't load and save the models as .obj and you will need a converting utility such as 3DWin5, to convert them between .3ds or .lwo and .obj, but the simplicity of the program is major. also implemented a cool guide to 3d modeling in general that covers most of the functions of Z-Modeler. i know the program let's open some wishes and texturing is not easy, but it's never and allways a lot of boring work imo. animations also can't be made, but that's deniable because you will have to animate your model anyways in the .lua script (which i still not exactly know how to animate a "solid" model, maybe i will have to use a model for each frame?). or do there exist a transform/rotate command, can it be solved with the transform matrix?

btw. is my file acsessable for you? i don't know because i will always have acsess to them.

just to keep things goin' on

[attachment=111:whereismyship.jpg]

snakes, erm thanks! 😉

check models progress for further......

it's anything rather then easy (to me) to setup the lua scripts for the models, but slowly i get experienced.

others (like you) might be intrested in how to do so. if i'm satisfied with my models i will upload them all with a description how to bind the models in pioneer in and get things animated, colored, and randomized (yes, random use of models, parts or colors, nice!)

at this time i'm willing to offer you, that i do the job for you if you got a model in wavefront .obj format (not necessairly, i can convert most anything except .max, i don't wan't to use further, piracy is theft). just let me know, how you wan't the model been set up, colors (3 variable colors possible, like in good old frontier, 2 glossy 1 matte), animated parts, setup dependent parts (like the scoop or the scanner, maybe laser guns to, have to work on that, but got a idea allready), randomly placed parts (why not), thruster positions (if not visible), position lights, glowing parts (engine), (semi)transparent parts, interiors (cockpit). best if you split your model to the needed different parts befor you hand it to me. your guessed setup for the ship (netto/tara weight, accel. ratio, etc..

scale:

scale your models in 1/10 meters, that's the best way imo, if you scale them 1/1 they're to big to handle in blender (and other CAD progs. as well. let me know the used scale, it could be 1/100 or 1/50 for the spacestations or huge transporters) and get "fogged" out in front or back. thats simple and you don't have to think to much about how big your ship is, you will have it under control. further this makes things easy for me to position the ships lights and thrusters, because i can assume 10/1m for my grid and got the right value for the vectors in the script. you can scale the model in the script to any needet size, but 1/10 is best to handle and we(i) don't loose control over the size(s) in pioneer.

really i just assumed this scale and i have no idea what is the scale "tomm" have guessed, but it seems to be ok.

i just compared frontiers ships to the size and mass of the allready ported ships and addet some guessing of mine (1/1 vertex spacing to "real" scale in meters, 1.15/1 (or 87%) to frontiers scale, because i dont want to have such a complicated scale compared to integer vertex spacing). :ugeek:

simplified this means; build your models in the scale 1/10 or 1/100 to "real" size.

example: to scale a FFED3D model to pioneer, multiply the models size 0.87 times.

[attachment=112:cobra MKI 001.jpg]

twin lasers, cool he? 😎

for those who are really interested in building scripted models (what a piece of work!), assume 1m for integer vertex spacing. make a sketch of your model on a grided sheet, then you can port the vectors easely to the script, use them to create then the polygons.

short example of a octaeder building;

the sketch:

[attachment=114:luamodelsketch[1].jpg]

scale i used 1/1, except for y vector which i divided by 2, i found it looks better flat.

final dimensions: 14m width, 7m height

the script:

see, you can build the model wrongways, but it works still, it's a left handed model, polys wound clockwise, usually you will build pioneer models right handed, polys wound counter clockwise (have to fix that in the script). in the editor it will look like this; back, top, right side.

hint: copy the code, paste it to a file named building1.lua, rename the model 'building1', put it to the models folder, or if you use my installation of pioneer, put it to "mods\MODELS - octaeder building1\data\models\city\building1" to exchange with the existing "building1"

actual version of my installation:

edit: haven't ready now, sorry 😕

the preview:

[attachment=113:octaeder_pre.jpg]

oh, before i forgot, you can use the modelviewer (only)for your scripted models, if you rename your script to models.lua, place it to models folder and call the model by it's name (you will have to put submodels used in the same script, else they won't appear).

that was quite a long text.... sorry for the many edits but....

have phun!

finally, you can put the model together something like this,

[attachment=115:octaeder_pre2.jpg]

futuristic looking building, isn't it?

let's see if you find out how 😛

you can still download a actual version of my installation from here: http://privat293.web.officelive.com/Documents/pioneer_p66mod1.zip , it's still in progress and a lot of things left unsolved. 😉

or here, http://www.spacesimcentral.com/downloads.php?view=detail&df_id=277

getting slowly to the core.

i will do the model (octaeder) new, i should have used xref_, haven't known exactly whatfor it is now i know 😉

will post results soon.

you might ask, why this guy takes himself so much time to build a scripted model, when you could do the same thing in 15mins in blender(or so), simply i wan't to know how it works. things like that get you to the inner structures of CAD, like in the past when i did my first steps and i allready learned a lot.

i.e. i've been working for more than 20 years in constructing airconditions, but still had allways problems to unfold a body proper so it can be read by others, this have helped me much to understand better the two general systems used (left or right handed). took me years, can you imagine, but do your first scripted model (don't use a CAD prog.) and quickly you will understand, funny.

next will be a transscription of a original FE2 model (eagle perhaps), let's see if that works.

hint; if you like to do something like that for yourself, don't hasitate, get jongwares, ShowMesh.exe, this will spit out a long list of all FFE's models. you can use it as pattern for your scripted models, if you dare.

interested in scripted models?

setting up missions?

http://pioneerspacesim.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

this will help you!

you might know the modelviewer won't work for solid (.obj) models, but still it's a handy toy to check your scripted models.

but with the altered directory structure of my installation it's hard to get any model opened, because modelviewer only searches for models in the models.lua file.

so you would have to copy and rename allways your scripted models (and submodels) to view them.

now i created a little batch which does the job for me:

copy & paste it if needet to a file named "whatever.bat", which you will have to place in your pioneer installation, else it won't work, because it didn't looks in which path it is in, this could be done, but it seems useless to me.

it's not perfect, but comfortable enough. on the prompt you will have to specify first the file which contains the model, thus because it could be any .lua file, you will have to enter the path to the file, therefore it can be located anywhere and not especially in ...data\models\ and the extension doesn't have to be .lua at all. so you have the possibility to open a script for testing purposes.

it will be copied to a temp dir and renamed to models.lua to allow the modelviewer to open it.

next you will be prompted to enter the models name, since it could be that you don't remember the right name, models in the chosen file will be listed roughly.

issues:

the batch terminates if you enter no filename or no model at the first prompt,

after it will keep the vars as long as the batch is running, so you can repetitive open the same model by just pressing enter.

external (not in the same file) submodels & routines, which are called by the script don't get loadet of course.

if you enter a unknown model name, modelviwer will try to open that model, which means it terminates, but the batch is still running, unfortunatly the wrong term is been held until you enter the right one. the second IF request isn't working properly by now, that's why the batch allways ports the models name to the viewer, no matter if exist or not.

but still handy to quickly check your work 😉 any questions, suggestions and enhancements are welcome.

of course i can't give absolutely no warranty for what it does else (nothing), or if the file gets opened by the viewer.

referring to naval and aeronautic system i guess we should use a similar, somewhat expandet lighting system for our space vessels.

Right-of-way lights (Position lights):

Port side (left, as seen by the pilot) - red, flashing, covering side at least by 180°, on the wingtips, if there are some, else on the most outrigging section.

Starboard (right, in pilots view) - green, flashing, covering side at least by 180°, same as port side.

Astern (the back) - white, flashing, covering back. somewhat higher than starbord and port lights, to show a upwards triangle from astern, likewise from bow, not to get confused where is bow, astern, port side or starboard, because in space you have no horizon, else if you see the red starboard light you won't know if the vessel is turned overhead. also it gives you an idea of the direction the craft is heading to.

Masthead light (topmost) - white, flashing. on a spacecraft it would be on the most upper section of the fuselage, i guess. covering maybe 360°. together with starboard and port side lights, it gives the triangle a upwards direction, likewise astern light and also seen when looked at starboard or port side, together they mark the direction of the vessel.

even if there is no horizon.

it will be like this:

pov from observer, left a red light, right a green one, white is pointing upwards, the craft is heading towards you, white is pointing downwards, the ship is overhaed and heading away from you.

vice versa, right red, left green, white is pointing up the ship is heading away from you, white is pointing downwards the ship is heading towards you overhead.

now even when the ship is a sphere or has a complete irregular geometry, you will allways know where it's heading.

thus marks only the main thruster movement, if it uses only retro thrusters or only strafes by use of side thrusters, it's not that clear where it is moving to (heading wont characterize movement then), but usually you won't use your "weak" side or retro thrusters to accelerate in main direction.

Collision warners:

used primarely at launching and landing/docking procedure to warn service personnel, landet or aproaching crafts.

space ships, should engage them, before launching and leave them on after docking or landing for a while, i guess.

Wingtips - white, flashing

Bow (front) - white, optional, can be a headlight or searchlamp, non flashing.

Keel (bottomside) - white, flashing, covering 360°

a poem:

red over red, the captain is dead 🙄

I just stumbled on an old ship I mde for FFED3D a year or so back.

I reckon with a new texture the ship could look ok, heres a pic:

[hsimg] [/hsimg]

Anyway the ship is here in the format for FFED3D if anyone can find a use for it.

I may just try and convert it if I can drag myself away fromDwarf Fortress for a bit 😉

Just found some other pics, these have an even worse texture and have some Normal mapping problems, which I fixed. But you can at least see the shape.

[hsimg] [/hsimg]

[hsimg] [/hsimg]

Very interesting thread with a lot of information and amazing models!

You are a talented guy!

Thanks for that potsmoke66.

thanks i need some compliments from time to time 😀

and there's still more to come

but also still a lot to learn

Do you,keep going keep going. 😀

uff, second ship to import to pioneer, why not, coolhand "free's" his viper to me to and i havent started yet.

i will in time.

i guess i delayed the importing of standart frontier ships because of two reasons,

first, i would like to see unique ship designs in pioneer, they could lean on frontier but not exactly covering them

second, i like to work on scripted models by now, it's a challenge. building a model with a CAD is one thing, scripting from a scratch is a complete different task. it will take you maybe much longer to complete one, but possibilities i mean flexibility it offers is unrevealed.

well the Lanner, a nice transporter, what you think if i would rebuild it from the original ingame model used in ffe, it could be done. textures can be made (in near future, i guess).

Yes, I like that Potsmoke. 🙂 I really think that red scratched texture really suits it. Shows how it would realistically look after many re-entries. Nice work! Could anything be done though about the registration numbers? They spoil its look.

Pretty much my feeling about the game is Pioneer should strive for its own look and feel and just not ape what was in Frointier.

I think your referring to my ship? If so then thanks 😉 The reg entries can easily be removed. They are only there as that picture is an old one taken from FFED3D, and since Pioneer doesn't have the reg entries (I think) then they won't show.

BTW Potsmoke66, I haven't actually imported my ship to Pioneer yet, its still in FFED3D format.. I might even have the original 3Dsmax file somewhere. So any tips you have for porting it over would be great. Will the game read a model made for FFED3D do you think?

Yes that can be done, I had a play around a while back at re-using the original models. In fact that Red Wyvern Explorer there uses the original model from FFE. Its just been changed a lot.

Heres what I mean:

Oops! 😳 Sorry S20dan, it's just that Potsmoke has been so busy making his models, I thought it was his. So please accept my apology 😳 Nice model all the same 😎

Oh its really no problem 😉 Just glad someone thinks the model is good enough for use 🙂

Potsmoke, do you think you could give me a few pointers with converting my model? The only copy I have is a .x format, I have lost the original object file.

here we go,

numero uno, why no reg#, i like much, replacing to correct or new positions, sizes in ffed3d is possible, with some braintwist. no, yes, reg# in pioneer are possible, even more then that since calling function for such is "easy", that goes to ffed3d to, i showed you once a example, truely you can have a reg#, a let's say personal name for the ship (or the general ship type, you can request from string table), and if you really like to get it to the top, your comandr (savegame) name under the rustrum (if there's one), i guess number of kills would be possible to 😮

ok, that would need some extra time and extra investigations to FFE of me, but possible. additionally it's hard, really hard to work on both FFED3D and Pioneer, commanders mind is allready twisted and the engine's halfways wrecked by now, could need some service in next dry dock. 😉 (i lost a harddrive, it's true, and by now all photos of me and every little tidbit i downloadet in the past 6 months is lost so far, stupid me 😥 don't tell me i should have... yes i should but dvd' drives was dismounted since i don't know and do i have to tell you what was behind "security relevant update", now you will understand my angry post of last week, no joke drives was physically ok, also present drivers in registry bur cancelled by windows, what a .......... 😈 😈 😈 😈 i guess this guy should never meet me in the dark.....)

to remove (no, no don't do it 😥 ) it's a easy task, you will only have to find the call for the reg# in FFED3D of the certain type of ship and blank that out with 0xFFFF. and on many ships they even never appear without a good hack (e.g. cobra mk3) or are simply covered by the model (e.g. coolhands viper).

numero due

converting from .x to .obj, no big deal, only that you will lose the animations of the landing gear, but that doesn't matters anyway, because you will have to write a complete new one in pioneer (task's not finished yet by me, but allready i know how to).

just in case that your program doesn't support wavefront .obj format use 3DWin5 to convert it comes with Rheingold3D from TB-software, but can be downloadet there separately.

general stuff how to convert i posted in "modeling for pioneer", but i will repeat the basic's here; measurement of ships (i guess that's important in first place) is 87 * 10 percent of the .x model for ffed3d you used. "erm what 87 * 10?" yes, use 87% of original in your cad prog. multiply the size in the .lua script by ten, that works best, imho, else the models get to big in the cad to work with, especially medium to big ships, from on the ASP and upwards, because of the fogging some programs have, 870% is a bit gigantic usually.

this will result in a perfect pioneer metric scale and it will give you additionally the advantege to position the thrusters, position lights and other optional sub models, in a scale compliant to pioneers vectors (1 integer vector = 1 meter), so you can "count" the vec's distances on your model if you underlay a 10:1 grid, you can use for shure 1:10 to make the hundredth parts visible, to get proper vectors in 1cm range e.g. 1.73 which stands for 1meter 73 centimeters, but respect allways your scale you used also 1:10 perhaps, on your model it is then....

right, 0.173 steps of a 1:1 grid.

i hope i didn't calculated anything wrong 🙄

models for pioneer are best split to several parts, because you will have to (can) specify in the lua script, various materials for them, such as blendet colors, variable colors, glossy to matte parts in all shades or even transparency if needet, has to be assigned this way, sounds complicated at first, but for car modelers like me a common thing. texture use newly is possible, a big thanks tomm he solved that very quickly. but we will have to wait for a working new alpha2 (it's in the boxes, ready to race). you can write the lua allready for texture use, usage is explained in pioneers wiki, i guess 😉 , but i know it needs some extra explanations (for me to and some trys, else the results will be unpredictable i guess) after all it wont be like modeling -> exporting -> voila, like for FFED3D.

even if i guess there is a possibility to do the job halfways automated within Blender (good prog., no best imho), but someone will have to write a export python script for it, a similar one i have seen allready. if i find the page again and find enough courage to ask that developer, who knows?

numero tre

i promise i will post a complete example lua script with explanations to every step, as soon as i have everything in a good shape and texture use is supported by alpha2, this goes also to the work with complete scripted models, which i personally prefere by now, because i told you, it gives pioneer a special Frontier, no Pioneer charm 8-), man im thirsty now, hand me a beer or two.