@Biomechanoid:

More thrust means distance has more chance to build up, and if you are strafing around, he will have a hard time adjusting his course so he can get near you again.

Consider this: Ladybird has 17G/6G/60t and Kanara has 26G/4G/25t. Ladybird is a bigger, slower ship, so it needs more time to build any distance between you than the Kanara with 26G. Try to hit any randomly moving point precisely with that kind of acceleration. And lateral thrusters are quite underpowered on the kanara, so any correction will be quite hard, if you are sitting on a 26G main engine, and trying to face a randomly moving opponent. Ladybird is more balanced in that regard too, so it will have better chance to correct it's course and decrease distance. And if the AI uses only the main thrust, then it will be even harder for it. Acceleration is not the only variable in this equation.

But don't take my word on it. Get yourself a Kanara and some cargo and fly to open space somewhere. Jettison a ton of cargo, and get about 6km far from it and cancel your velocity relative to it. (target it with your mouse while holding down ctrl, and you will know the relative speed to it). Then try to fly as close to it as possible with full acceleration, and then turn around and try to do that again. You will be at least 3-4 km from it when you fully turn around and face it again, and you will be around 7-10km from it when your main engine cancels out the velocity you've built when you started accelerating towards it. Try it with both Set Speed and Manual Control flight mode. Now imagine that the target moves around while you are trying to do that. 

Jousting is much different when you don't have that barrier in the center, the field is limitless, your opponent can go any direction, and both of your horses need 10 seconds to come to a halt.

Combat isn't broken at all, it's only that the Kanara is far faster (has better acceleration), so it's swings will be far larger. Also the smaller hull of the Kanara doesn't help either.

Try adjusting the kanara's stats to that of the Ladybird starfighter from alpha26, and you will see it behaves quite similar to the Ladybird in alpha26.

I don't think it needs any more discussion, we are running in circles with it really.

Essentially the combat(physics) model is the same, but when you change some variables, then the outcome will be a bit different. And in space, small differences can easily become more pronounced. That's why we need more ship types, so combat can be more varied. (And ctrl+F12 could randomly dispatch from a selection of ships...)

And I think it's a bit of an overreaction to say that something is broken, when you only try it out in a certain narrow situation. Ctrl+F12 skirmish in both versions isn't really testing it trough properly )

Hi AUSDoug,

 

That sounds like a bug actually, it's supposed to turn off the time acceleration when you get attacked so that you have a chance to defend yourself or escape.

 

Does it always happen? Or only with certain types of mission?

 

We might need to look into it.

 

Andy

Hi Andy.

First of all, thanks for actually understanding my question instead of questioning my combat skills.

It's hard to say if it always happens; I've only been playing a short while, and the only time I've come under attack is when doing the courier or taxi missions where the client says that I'll *probably* be attacked.

In both of those instances, the game does not revert to normal speed when I'm attacked: The first I know of it is after my ship has blown up.

Cheers,

AUSDoug

@bio: I don't know why your enemies tries to evade from the battle, insted of fighting. For what is worth, yesterday I tried three times to spawn an enemy and engage battle, and every time he attacked me until I died.

@bio: I don't know why your enemies tries to evade from the battle, insted of fighting. For what is worth, yesterday I tried three times to spawn an enemy and engage battle, and every time he attacked me until I died.

Most tradeships will run away if attacked. Also ships tasked to attack without armaments will run away, but you can't really get that without some console work.

Ships that most certainly will not run away:

* The combat test ship (press ctrkl-F12)
* Police (fire at a starport)

In recent builds, more precise after Pioneer Alpha 31 or 32, the enemys don+t want to fight!

First, I'll note that alpha 32 was released almost four months ago. It is not particularly recent.

That said, there's been no substantial changes in the combat model since then. I wonder if you're simply outrunning the enemy? If you're in the regular start ship (Wave) and you're using the standard Ctrl-F12 enemy (Kanara), then you have higher thrust and can get away without too much effort.

Alpha 26 had a different set of ships. In particular, the start ship and the Ctrl-F12 enemy were far more evenly matched.

Or put another way, the sun is zooming around the centre of the galaxy, and the earth around it, and the earth itself is spinning, and yet you're sitting quietly in your chair in front of your computer. You're moving quite fast, and you don't care.

Hi Andy.

First of all, thanks for actually understanding my question instead of questioning my combat skills.

 

It's hard to say if it always happens; I've only been playing a short while, and the only time I've come under attack is when doing the courier or taxi missions where the client says that I'll *probably* be attacked.

 

In both of those instances, the game does not revert to normal speed when I'm attacked: The first I know of it is after my ship has blown up.

No worries 🙂 I could see your problem getting talked over 😀

I tried to repeat the problem this morning before work but I couldn't seem to get any little fishies to bite so I might have to weight (hack) the jobs I'm getting.

Alternatively could you save your game regularly and then when you've got a save game that shows the problem just zip it up and upload it somewhere.

Or I can give you my email address via a private message to send me it.

It is odd though, the constant interruptions caused by various messages to the time acceleration is itself a pain in the bum. The fact that you're not getting them and are thus getting annihilated is very odd.

Andy

The autopilot had a major overhaul in a30 ... pull #1812.

I guess maybe the combat changed from a29 to a30?

 

Pioneer is not other Simulators, and is hard  maintain the "Simulation Pure" Like Orbiteer or Microsoft Space Flight Simulator.

 

 

Sorry, but Pioneer and Orbiter are two quite different pairs of shoes, and I'm glad for it, otherwise I wouldn't play them both... 😉

Pioneer, or, for lack of a better reference of what the finished product should look like, Frontier,  is by no means a pure simulation. There is certainly a larger Simulation portion than with most other "spacesims", but at its heart it is and remains a Space Opera sandbox, and brings with it the potential attraction of common Space Opera tropes. Among them are stuff like greedy crew of misfits trading moonshine in a rundown spacestation, Bold crew of explorers discover new life and new civilizations where no one has gone before, and last but not least big giant epic frickin' space battles... All of which are equally unrealistic, but also equally attractive, romantic and most of all fun. No, I don't think Pioneer would suffer from big space battles, but neither do I expect them anytime soon. All I said was that it could be realised purely by scripting. 

Also, we never had a big spacebattle in a newtonian environment. It sounds like a loooot of fun to me!

And as for your combat problem: The more maneuverable ship determines the rules of engagement. If it's you, and you can't stay close to the enemy, you're doing it wrong. If it's him, and he doesn't want to get in close, there's not so much you can do about it, although AI's usually can be tricked. That said, the enemy is usually a rather lousy shot and often doesn't want to come close enough to actually do some damage, so if he's more maneuverable it can get really annoying. 

Ok, thanks for your help... I have only two questions:

1.- Can you approach the enemy using "Set speed" mode?? Or only with the manual mode??

2.- How is the new combat model in the recent Pioneer releases?? You said it's not like FFE2.

"combat always seems to be like a medieval jousting match. Typically what

happens is the two ships engaged in combat will come towards each other in a

high speed head-on run, lasers firing. Usually one will manoeuvre to miss the

other, but both ships will hurtle past each other with a high relative speed. Both

ships will turn around their longitudinal axis to face each other with lasers once

more, hit the power, and the process will repeat itself until one of them runs

away, or one of them is destroyed"

 

In recent builds, this don´t happen, but in Pioneer Alpha 26 or 24, is diferent, and combat almost match frontier.

 

I know very well that this happened in Frontier. This was because in Frontier, both AI and controls sucked. I would consider it a missed opportunity if Pioneer wouldn't fix the (most critisised) jousting matches of Frontiers/FFE. JJFFE showed that decent controls help sooth the problem, since now the player had a decent chance to actually maneuver, but it didn't give equal opportunity to the AI. Now we have equal opportunity for the AI, and find out that it becomes a cat-and-mouse game. Some more tinkering is required to make it fun. Something like guns with a limited firing arc and auto-aim for example, which is the method practicaly every single spacesim using a newtonian model since I-War used to solve the problem. Give it some time. That the jousting's gone is not bad. It's good. It means the combat model is moving in the right direction. That can at times lead to worse intermiediate results than it was at first. But they'll make it work eventually.

Go play some I-War, "I found her", and Evochron, and try to analise why exactly the combat in those games works so well. You'll find that it is a) because there's no jousting, b) because there's computer assisted aiming and maneuvering, c) because of sensible instrumentation (see "I found her" for an absolutely brilliant example of how proper instrumentation helps combat in a newtonian environment) and d) because there's an artificial limit to the closing speed of the vessels, which can be overriden by the player if he wants to, but which otherwise gives a good velocity frame for the fight to take place. Pioneer got rid of the jousting, that's a good start, but it currently makes things harder. The rest will follow eventually.

 

You think this is funny!?

 

No. As I said, intermittant results tend to work badly. Yes, the current state is less fun than the old. But it's a first step to making it more fun. Just be patient.

 

In other Games, u can chase a planet at high speed!? can u land there!? lol

 

No you can't, and it's completely besides the point. I am pointing to one single aspect of those games, which they did very well, and which we happen to discuss here: Dogfights in a newtonian environment.

 

P.S.2 i already said i love Frontier and Pionner,  I do not know why from time to time, someone appears to say very bad things about the game.!!?

Because some things about Frontier were bad. That's got nothing to do with love or hate. Frontier was great for its possibilities, vision and immersion, but it certainly didn't shine a light on combat.

 

 If you do not like leave me alone. pls

 

 

Sorry. It was not my intention to upset you. You asked why the jousting matches are gone. I answered it's because they had to go. There's better ways to do it. The game's moving in that direction, but it's not there yet, so currently the state seems to be getting worse. That's very often the case in Alphas. Give the devs some time.

Alternatively could you save your game regularly and then when you've got a save game that shows the problem just zip it up and upload it somewhere.

Alrighty, when I've got one, I'll upload it to dropbox and PM you a link.

Cheers,

Doug

UPDATE: I just downloaded the Pioneer version that became available on the 1st of July - before I was using the previous version - and so far I haven't experienced the problem.

I was sitting in a space station, waiting for my target to leave and every time another ship launched I got an alert and the game reverted to normal speed.

I'm still waiting for one of the 'dangerous' courier or taxi missions to come along, but it may seem that the problem has been resolved.

Pioneer is a work in progress , since the mod of the autopilot  it's true that the dogfights are more easy ( i think the ai of enemy use autopilot to fight ? i am right? ). but you must understand that it's probably temporary.

Maybe in a future release that must be exactly the opposite , you is comparing boths phases of an " in progress project ".  :mole:

That does not serve has much.

Many things must be changed a each news releases of Pioneer .

PS

About Genesia maybe the combats must not satisfy somebody , ist a fork from the Alpha 31 and it's also in progress , It's also in first my personal version of the game and , for me , the combats is good (i'm more a explorer player than a fighter).

But maybe in the end of the dev , i decide to work on that .

Every things at the appropriate time  :paint:

@ Bio, 

Don't worry , i've read your result of combat test ^^ .

That why i say that maybe in the future i must work on that ( but to mod  AI , it's need to work on Source and i'm not a codder , that mean i must ask anothers exteriors helps  😳 ).

But stop talk Gen. here , it's Off toppic , 

UPDATE: I just downloaded the Pioneer version that became available on the 1st of July - before I was using the previous version - and so far I haven't experienced the problem.

Interesting, I wonder what changed or whether it was just a bad build. Thanks for the update though I hope it doesn't reappear for you! 🙂

the pirate will catch me  shortly after i start decelerating. (i think the enemy don´t cheat for interceptions)
 
At Speed 8000kms (no matter the speed) we enter in combat (Duel). (The enemy don´t cheat in combat, but now i believe he cheats!?)

The AI ships in Pioneer do not cheat. This is quite unlike Frontier, where they cheat like crazy.

But in frontier FFE the enemy don´t  cheat for interceptions. maybe if we use Max stardreamer (x5)!?

In Frontier they do cheat for interception. Well, they don't really intercept you at all - they just spawn on top of you.

I´m not sure about frontier, but FFE i don+t think they cheat, because manual said the Enemy Use Autopilot to intercept, and the enemys spawn when you arrive at a system.

The manual would say that, because its trying to create a plausible scenario to immerse the player in. But the game itself cuts corners to make it look like that. Which is fine, cheating is perfectly acceptable if the player can't tell. I'm not criticising it at all, just noting the difference.

@Vuzz & Biomechanoid

Hi guys, if you can't get along then please don't respond to each others comments and posts so that we can keep these topics for those who do have questions.

Ok?

Thanks,

Andy

A while ago there was a commented out part of the UI (an extra page under F3 I think) that showed the velocity for a circular orbit at the present altitude along with a descent to surface velocity and I think an escape velocity. I reactivated it in a version a while ago and found it very useful, is it still present in any form?

Yes, it's there. I routinely uncomment it.

You can find it, also, in the Scout+ mod.

There's some flaw with it that is the reason it's not available.

I tested it a while ago but can't remember what the issue was - Brianetta pointed out the problem to me ... really cannot recall where I had the discussion with him.

 

But in frontier FFE the enemy don´t  cheat for interceptions.

 

Of course they do. Otherwise, if your ship has higher acceleration, they could only keep within firing range for a few seconds. The words you posted from the manual are quite correct: A slower opponent can catch up to you. It omitts, however, that he could never match velocities. Hence, if a slower ship tries to intercept a fast one, it will usually have a firing window of a few seconds. Enough to get a few missiles of and get lucky. Not enough for a dogfight.