Had to download 3 or 4 times as Windows keeps deleting the download (Windows version) from my PC. Have to jump through hoops to stop it from being deleted.

That definitelly should not happen. Could you open an issue about it on github?

Think it is just Windows being over protective. After downloading there is a message saying that the program is not downloaded often and it cannot be verified as being safe. If you quit the webpage at this point Windows deletes the download. You have to tell the webpage to keep the download - but you have to do this 2 or 3 times in different places to stop it being deleted. I sent some feedback to Microsoft when asked about the download, saying that I thought it was safe.

Thanks! Yupp, windows can be quite protective indeed.

I have downloaded it successfully. Lots of great new features. 

@peachjest Beware, we'll release the 2024 in less than a month, and it has more features, and it will break the save format, so you'll have to start from zero again (hopefully this will be more rare now, in 2024, since we now have a way to restore old incompatible save versions).

UPDATE: Correction: seems like the saves from the 2023 release will be salvagable for the upcomming 2024 release, if we get this merged in time (see video): https://github.com/pioneerspacesim/pioneer/pull/5706

@impaktor 

As far as I understand it, my ability to mod the game to my liking will be severely limited with this version - more than that, all previous work will become invalid. I have no idea what exactly you have up your sleeve, but if I have no way to switch from the current 'we have two million factions that are all the same and inhabit a trillion systems' to a 'we have a handful of inhabited systems and factions that differ by character' WITHOUT investing weeks of effort again... I don't know if the upgrade is worth it or if I'd rather skip another year...

Nobody touched factions at least since 5 years according to the github log.

We do want to reign in the generated ones eventually, but not until we can provide meaningful content and gameplay around them.

@crux Could you describe what makes you think you are unable to upgrade? #5706 [1] is much needed to keep players from having to start over from scratch each time they want to upgrade the game to a newer (major save-version) release of the game. That code should only need changing if a new feature is added that would have deprecated all the player's saves.

Or are you refering to the new system editor? We moved the lua system definitions to json, it was a required change to support the GUI system editor, with which we hope to make it easier for players to design and contribute new systems. In the effort we also discovered many parameters in the systems that were undefined, or not configurable, that have now been fixed. A video demonstration of the feature is up on our youtube channel.

I'm all for reducing "one million factions" to say 3, that have distictly different character, and would like to see that in the master branch.

Our aim is to support a modding scene, so please provide feedback where you think we've broken something for you.

[1] https://github.com/pioneerspacesim/pioneer/pull/5706

@nozmajner
@impaktor

Of course I also think the changes are sensible and, in view of the longevity of the project, necessary. I would also like to make it clear that I do not see myself as having a special right to criticise just because I have donated to Pioneer.

When I stumbled across Pioneer a few years ago, purely by chance, I liked the basic concept, but the motivation to play it 'seriously' disappeared relatively quickly. Personally, I found the setting 'trivial'; thousands of inhabited systems, but all the same, no serious background story (although there was a rough outline), but above all, no 'pioneer feeling'. So I experimented relatively quickly with the possibilities given to me (I'm not a coder). The Lua files enabled me to get Pionier relatively close to what I wanted. So I limited myself to a handful of factions that only occupy a relatively modest area around Earth. Certain technologies such as the autopilot had to be earned first and could not be acquired just like that. Jump drives are expensive, the jump range is severely limited, and so on. And of course, limiting it to a few dozen systems also meant that each of them had to be hand-built to a certain degree. This is all very easy to realise at the moment, as the Lua structure is very... simple.

The move away from Lua is a good thing, for sure. And the system editor looks great, sure. Personally, however, I have two questions:

1. can I achieve the same thing I achieved before with the Lua structure exactly the same way with the new structure?

2. how much time will this take?

Specifically, I want to know if it is possible to easily get rid of the hundred irrelevant factions and create a handful of my own with the new structure. Whether it is possible to let these factions control only a handful of systems by changing a handful of numbers in the corresponding file. Even in the old data structure it's a problem that you can't change the colonised space itself - even then (as it stands now) a certain amount of RPG is necessary to see past this until someone finds a solution. In my opinion, it can't stand any more restrictions.

What good is the best system editor in the world if the systems I generate with it are of no interest to anyone? Taking the time to generate your own systems only makes sense to me if the players spend time with them. In my mod, players spend a lot of time in faction-controlled systems, precisely because there are only a handful of them. They fulfil missions there, earn credits and learn the craft. That's where the story takes place. The lore. And then... when the pioneering spirit takes hold of them - off into the depths. This feeling of 'discovery' should not be disturbed by the fact that every damn system in the universe is inhabited. Not in my mod.

I was hoping that someone would soon find a solution to the current restriction and we could change the number behind the 'populated space generator', and now I wonder if we've come closer to that step or moved away from it. That's basically it. I run a roleplaying group and Pioneer (or rather; Pioneer in combination with my mod) is an integral part of it. Of course, I had the long-term goal of making the mod package available to all interested players ou there once it was finished (the last hurdle mentioned above was taken) and now I'm simply wondering whether it's worth pursuing the project further, starting again or giving up.

Because as I said: Pioneer's vanilla version is not interesting for us / me. But as we will be able to test the latest version ourselves in a few weeks, I will know then.

That sounds interesting.I would sure be interested in that mod. I do agree that a more hand-crafted and menaingfully built bubble would be desirable. With more lore and such. But the right now team is occupied by other, lower level parts of the game.
The system editor is one step towards that, enabling players to more easily contribute custom systems.

Haven't tried yet, but you should be able to convert your custom systems to the new format easily.

As for factions, that part haven't been changed for years, so you should be able to just copy over your changes, as far as I know. Assuming you are using last year's release or the couple of year's before.

You can reduce the expansion rate of factions. Dividing by ten resulted a quite small bubble. The only thing missing is that you can't reign in the independend systems, even if you remove the Independend faction. (No central governance will be generated then)

Posted by: @nozmajner

You can reduce the expansion rate of factions. Dividing by ten resulted a quite small bubble. The only thing missing is that you can't reign in the independend systems, even if you remove the Independend faction. (No central governance will be generated then)

That's exactly what's stopping me from completing it at the moment.

In itself it wouldn't be a problem if there was an 'inhabited' independent system here and there, but as it stands the handcrafted bubble exists within a much larger bubble that is interspersed with independent systems. From an immersive point of view this could be explained in some way, but from a (mod related) gameplay point of view it makes no sense to come across such systems everywhere, because it makes the handcrafted ones meaningless.

@crux_72

1. can I achieve the same thing I achieved before with the Lua structure exactly the same way with the new structure?

Yes, as for characteristics of a system, the new editor supports all the parameters the old lua system did and more. I believe the old lua code for systems still work, but will be deprecated.

 2. how much time will this take?

I have no idea what it used to take you, or how proficient you'll be in the new tool. The first system will take longer than the second, since you'll learn the editor. Considering you get direct feedback to the adjustments you make, and you see exactly what each parameter does to the system you're designing, and how it will effect orbits and how the system will look, that should be way faster than tweaking a number in lua, and starting pioneer open the system view and look at the system.

If the custom systems you've designed are based off real stars, and don't have bad names (like trade mark infringement on Elite franchise or Star Wars, or inappropriate names like "poopy-McPlanet-poop") I see no reason we couldn't add your systems to pioneer, that way maintaining them falls on the dev team.

Specifically, I want to know if it is possible to easily get rid of the hundred irrelevant factions and create a handful of my own with the new structure.

Factions have not been touched, and are not set in the system files. I don't like how factions are assigned today, I'd like them to be more "manual" on how they are defined. Current development work by sturnclaw is focused on re-writing equipment system, and after that perhaps damage/energy/heat system, and after that perhaps turrets, and proper interactive 3D cockpit.

I (and much of the dev team) agrees with your criticism I think.

I run a roleplaying group and Pioneer (or rather; Pioneer in combination with my mod)

Interesting. I believe we discuss (way into the future) adding some more RPG into pioneer (actually, the New Game menu in the up coming release is a step in that direction). I keep pushing "my dream" post on everyone, so why not you as well: https://forum.pioneerspacesim.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=454

That's exactly what's stopping me from completing it at the moment. [about big inhabbited bubble]

I've actually been looking into that a few years ago, I don't remember what stopped me, but I think there should basically be a number "700 ly"-radius (for explored systems from Sol) that we should be able to expose to modders, (and change default to 10 fold less). Actually, I think I'll look into that tomorrow, if I have time.

Ultimately: we want players and modders to be happy, if a modder has a wish to get access to some mechanics that's not in API, we often (depending on available free time) accommodate them as best we can.

... I see the latest version is available - so I'll soon know where I stand 🙂

Posted by: @impaktor

Interesting. I believe we discuss (way into the future) adding some more RPG into pioneer (actually, the New Game menu in the up coming release is a step in that direction). I keep pushing "my dream" post on everyone, so why not you as well: https://forum.pioneerspacesim.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=454

I think we've already talked about this - and I'd already read this post over on the forum. I think I remember that we exchanged a few ideas on how this could perhaps be implemented 'relatively easily' as a first step, at least in such a way that the impression is created that you are entering a starbase/city as a player. Since then, nothing has changed about the fact that I can't code, but if you manage to create a certain basic structure, I still think I can help out here. Maybe it will be easier now with the new language...

This symbiotic endeavor not only showcased the innovative Geometry Dash  prowess of modern space exploration but also underscored the significance of partnerships in pushing the boundaries of our understanding of the universe.