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Removing Elite/Frontier content

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Vuzz
 Vuzz
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-_-  ...ok          end of transmistion .( clearly a problem of comunication whit the terrian called Robn) .   


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laarmen
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(oh, yes, I forgot the traditional IANAL too)

 

As it shows here, the way copyright and licences, furthermore free software licences, work is a tricky thing and you cannot assume that people that are not actively involved in free software projects know the specificities involved.

 

I don't know about Oolite, I've never even played the game, but my guess is that they have one of the two following positions :

- They consider that their content is NOT related to Frontier Development IP, which might be true. That's a luxury Pioneer cannot afford, since the filiation is quite obvious in our case.

- They have the common "if nobody sues us, we're in the clear" approach.

 

(or they've made a deal with FD and their licencing doesn't conflict with it)

 

In any case it is none of our business.

 

For FD, i don't know anything more than you guys about the offer, but like I said, we cannot assume that they know how it works in our world. My guess is, they made an offer which would be really  nice for any traditional closed-source clone, thinking that the only difference with Pioneer is that we publish the sources. That would be total good faith, just bad understanding of Free Software.


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Styggron
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As I said earlier, I'm not willing to publicise the details without permission from Frontier Dev. Which I'm not seeking, because I just don't think its important.

 

I think the root cause is here. Because you for your reasons do not think it is important it only brews speculation. I have tried to follow the thread and because there are a few questions, this is why people are a little worried.

 

The best I can do is try to ask them directly if that is ok so here goes. This should put it to rest.

 

a) Does Frontier have a problem with you continuing Pioneer with all the previous Elite content.  ?

All this needs is a yes or no. Yes I know it may not be as simple as that but just a direct response would help.

 

If Yes

-->it is understandable that you wish to remove content.  You were offered helpful assistance and advice and a possible license etc which the Core Team felt was not compatible with Pioneer's development and you do not want to go into details.   ok all fair enough. and yes it is acknowledged Frontier was very kind and generous in their assistance. This we understand. 🙂

 

If No

--> Then I don't understand why you do not keep the content as Frontier are the ones that can have an issue with the content but if they don't then it is a non issue and you could continue Pioneer the way you wanted with the Elite content (unless the Core team personally don't want to of course). You in essence have permission from them to continue. Citing IP is a non issue because again because the owners do not have a problem with it. It's like me asking a band "can I use your music that you own the copyright for" if they say "yes" well then that means I can, and sure it means they can rescind this at ANY time.

 

 

Is it a "yes" or a "no" ?   This should clear it up once and for all 


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robn
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this is why people are a little worried.

What are you worried about?
 

Is it a "yes" or a "no" ?   This should clear it up once and for all 

As I've stated repeatedly an offer was made to use Frontier's IP under licensing that was not compatible with ours. Which is neither a "yes" or a "no" to your question.


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Styggron
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What are you worried about?

 

As I've stated repeatedly an offer was made to use Frontier's IP under licensing that was not compatible with ours. Which is neither a "yes" or a "no" to your question.

Correct you are not answering the question at all. Sorry but it is evading the question.

 

Did Frontier have a problem with Pioneer continuing as it was. their position is binary they either have an issue or they don't (at the moment).

 

This is a simple yes or no. Not if they offered you anything but if they had a problem with you continuing. If they did, then fair enough as I have cleared up but if no then it is a non issue so again a yes or no response would again sort it out.

 

Please I am not asking this witrh arrogance at all but with a humble tone.


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fluffyfreak
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@Styggron

We can't give a yes or no because it never got that far along and it's just not that simple.

We've repeatedly tried to tell you that.

 

We don't have permission, nor do we have a threat to remove it.

We got as far as a suggested possible license that wasn't compatible with Pioneers current licensing so we couldn't take that one.

 

Maybe we could have continued to try and work it out but there are problems with that:

A) We're not laywers,

B) We had a perfectly good plan B in that we could just remove the content,

C) There's no guarantee that we'd have worked something out which was any different to us removing the content.

 

No FD didn't state that they had a problem, BUT they did want to do some kind of licensing deal.

That implies that if we couldn't work one out, we'd have to remove the content anyway.

We didn't discuss it any further with them so it never got that far.

 

If you're worried about Oolite then Oolite should contact them and ask like we did.

 

Andy


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Styggron
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Thank you Fluffy, and Robn this makes the position crystal clear now.

 

The line that fixed it was "No FD didn't state that they had a problem, BUT they did want to do some kind of licensing deal."

 

I understand now. I have to admit reading all the threads that perhaps did not come out quite as clear, at least for me, it was clear that talks happened but not that they did WANT to do some kind of deal. That was the missing piece...that I did not see mentioned explicitely sorry if I did miss it. I was just wanted to fully understand.

 

With this understanding now, I for one can evangelise and try to back the Pioneer team up as best I can. Thank you for your patience with so many people.


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robn
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I for one can evangelise and try to back the Pioneer team up as best I can.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but if you were planning to, please do not frame this as a "Pioneer vs Frontier Developments" kind of thing. Its really not. Frontier Developments are awesome, and you will not hear core team say a bad word against them.


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fluffyfreak
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Yeah FD have been really good, it's us who couldn't see a better way forward, so chose this route.

 

This thread is 6 pages long just to say what Robn said in the first post 🙁


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Styggron
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I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but if you were planning to, please do not frame this as a "Pioneer vs Frontier Developments" kind of thing. Its really not. Frontier Developments are awesome, and you will not hear core team say a bad word against them.

I know Frontier are awesome and extremely helpful I will never say a bad word about them I respect them, they are ALWAYS helpful. It was NEVER my intention to create any vs, I was just looking for understanding which can only be gained from facts. There is NO vs here whatsoever.  I can certainly see how it can be interpretet as such because of the direct question I phrased. The only reason I had to frame the question with a yes or no is that for me at least, the posts were still unclear and I did not understand them to the clarity level needed.

 

Fluffy's post made it crystal with that single line. It eliminated all other questions and cleared it up entirely.

 

and what I mean by evangelise is if I ever hear anything against either side because of lack of info, I can point them here for the facts and give positive comments for both parties whom I have a great deal of respect and admiration for.


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Styggron
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Yeah FD have been really good, it's us who couldn't see a better way forward, so chose this route.

 

This thread is 6 pages long just to say what Robn said in the first post 🙁

Ummmm because the first post did not explain certain things when one reads it. . By only reading that first post there is no indication of what you said fluffy in the post above, the line that made it much clearer.

 

If it had that, then yes all questions would have been eliminated. That detail was not there and did not come through till much later and thus still leaves some speculation.  If it were first then yes but that detail was lacking so there was still unanswered q's  but now there are none. It is crystal as I have said....at least for me. 🙂


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fluffyfreak
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It never occurred to anyone that we didn't want to discuss it at all because it doesn't help anything, any other project, affect the outcome, or drag FD or ourselves into it any further?

 

If someone goes and makes a mod with the FFE ships then our decision doesn't help them decide if they're legally ok or not.

If another project is making a Frontier/FFE clone then our decision doesn't help them decide if they're legally ok or not.

 

We were trying, very very very hard not to discuss it at all because there just isn't anything to discuss that isn't in that first post.

We had some discussions, they (FD) were awesome, out of everything that was discussed this is what we're doing.

That's all in that first post and it avoids going into what those discussions were about because they were done with a private company (FD) and what we discussed might not be something they'd consider for another project so it'd be massively rude, and dishonest, of us to expose it all.

 

The more you guys pester us for more and more information the worse it been getting for us. I'd rather just be making the damned game 🙁


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Starblade
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"No FD didn't state that they had a problem, BUT they did want to do some kind of licensing deal."

 

Finally something that makes sense and it is easy to understand.If this was told right from the start , it would prevent many arguments (most theories and half words and half ideas and half hints). As for me, I'm happy with the explanation.

 

I guess it is time to close the thread and move on...


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Vuzz
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"No FD didn't state that they had a problem, BUT they did want to do some kind of licensing deal."

 

Finally something that makes sense and it is easy to understand.If this was told right from the start , it would prevent many arguments (most theories and half words and half ideas and half hints). As for me, I'm happy with the explanation.

 

I guess it is time to close the thread and move on...

 

I completly agree , 

 

After theses explanations i think  the Core team have take the good decision for the future dev of Pioneer , the dev team take her total liberty and with the new system SGM they can  more easily build news differents ships than  the "Frontier Models".


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tomm
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Hey people,

 

For what it's worth (and I haven't been involved since 2011), I agree that Elite/Frontier content should be removed from Pioneer. When I appealed here for contributors in 2010 it was a weakness on my part that I allowed content that may have been derived from Frontier to enter Pioneer. I didn't want to dissuade contribution at a time when the project really needed people, but in the long run it was probably counter-productive.

 

Anyway, Frontier is a very bland milkyway game world (despite how much we loved it); we can take the basic astronomical setting and do something entirely better with it.


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s2odan
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massively rude, and dishonest, of us to expose it all.

 

 Everyone has their own opinion, But I just don't think it can be considered dishonest to expose the truth to those who support you. (I use the term support quite loosely here 😉 )

  Open development...thats all I will say.

 

Edit// Actually I will say a little more 😀

 

 I just wanted to clarify that I do support the core team's decision to remove Frontier content. Pioneer will be able to pave it's own way from now on.

  But I just didn't support the decision not to say clearly why it was happening.

 I love when things are kept open to all.


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walterar
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Thanks Tom, you are a legend.

 

Your clarification removes any doubt regarding present and future of "their baby".

 

And ... what of defeat the government? Still valid?  :O

 

 

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fluffyfreak
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And ... what of defeat the government? Still valid?  :O

 

 

 

Getting more valid everyday far as I can see 😉


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s2odan
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Hehe.

 Plans are afoot... the government won't know what hit them 😉


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Vuzz
 Vuzz
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 Everyone has their own opinion, But I just don't think it can be considered dishonest to expose the truth to those who support you. (I use the term support quite loosely here 😉 )

  Open development...thats all I will say.

 

Edit// Actually I will say a little more 😀

 

 I just wanted to clarify that I do support the core team's decision to remove Frontier content. Pioneer will be able to pave it's own way from now on.

  But I just didn't support the decision not to say clearly why it was happening.

 I love when things are kept open to all.

chapeau bas !


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Potsmoke66
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i guess truely from a certain point on it gets boring to struggle, that's said by me who loves to...

 

i could (and i am) be angry (sad suits better), but ok, we can plea, beg, but certainly that won't change their decision.

ok, we said that we didn't feel alright with it, and i guess in a quite unambiguous way (sometimes).

it's not funny neither for me, but well, what can i do?

 

please, let's face the facts before we go "crazy" or start to wish each ones dead.

 

"...what can i do?"

 

i can go on as i did, no one will or could hinder you or me from this.

i can open a branch of pioneer (i guess) where we can use them still, it will be our/my duty then.

where one or a group can continue to develop in a "different" direction, even if it's in a small range with very small steps.

 

personally i see no problems of a lawsuit, but of course if i would go on with my FFE models in a branch of pioneer and not as a "mod", i will first be sure it's plain with Frontier.devs (might that means a second time, and if it needs a third time to be sure, i don't mind).

as well as for the pioneer developers, but i guess i have their agreement.

 

else you still have the right to veto.

 

i know that some will miss the "elite content",

if one knows it...

 

---

 

to this Q, how Oolite get's around that,

they didn't get around it, it was a change of acting of FD.

 

as i asked a few years ago if it's plain to use the original geometry in pioneer, the answer was:

"we would leave a bad taste in everybodys mouth..."

 

but also i have to say that's only a spoken agreement, nothing that is written down somewhere.

it won't protect me or give me the "right" to do it, tightly looked at it.

 

ok, i can try and risk it, if i like to take this risk, that prob. tomorrow it would be a lawsuit.

personally the situation is that i can't loose, i'm a "naked man" and a naked man can't be undressed.

meanest what could happen to me (in all situations of life) is i get locked up, or get killed.

latter won't happen, the first i don't fear of a lot.

 

BUT,

this is my descision, i can't demand that someone should risk his job or career prob.

neither i like to demand that someone should risk his reputation.

 

---

 

hey i can't type so fast....

 

yeah, let's bring down the government,

 

tomorrow 😉

 

first we have to get this right, right?

 

---

 

however it wil turn out, i look at this "splitting" as a part of the "experiment".

we don't agree with the "government"?

 

ok. take a boat, sail down the coast and settle new.

fortunately we have (cyber)space enough and it's not limited like room for living or food.

 

to split or divorce is hard and hurts, no question, always, but if we are really that dissatisfied with the on-going,

then we really have only one opinion.

 

---

 

it has cost me nearly my lfe and mind to divorce from my wife,

but i had to take a descision back then,

either we had ended up in continuing endless fights and finally i would have hurt my daughter most with it, (meaner even, if you think about "tomorrow")

or "i pack my bag and leave", not easy, but a descision had to be made.

still my whole life is upsidedown, even five years later, i can't find no future for me,

everything has gettin' a little senseless and i often say to myself, "be happy to be still alive at all".

 

BUT i will never regret this descision, it was the right one for me and my little daughter, only this counts.

 

to fall back to pioneer,

i guess one had to be pretty sure before he likes to go in a own direction,

but i'm here and i'm open for ideas.

 

let's get constructive

 

destruction and construction was my favorite game as a boy,

but i guess i liked construction better, else i wouldn't have destructed.

 

---

 

further how far a creative commons licence will work for us and if it can be changed to something more restricting, i will see.

because i know some artists didn't feel well with it, it's not clear enough that the work shall not be marked as copyrighted.

that we "artists" can decide about reselling and restrict it.

and no third party can come along and makes it to their own,

i know that Creative Commons have been "softened" to open the doors again for obscure companies which earn money with works they have no rights on.

 

the "moiney machine" must live on, one could say.

 

artists are dissatisfied with this, it's ok to copy, spread it, but to mark it as copyrighted?

"sailing under a false flag"?

 

"oh, we have the power and can bend law as we like"

 

not a satisfying situation.

 

as a example, nina paley made this fine movie "sita sings the blues".

it was licensed like our project, nonetheless there was a lawsuit because of use of copyrighted content.

(one has to say to this that this content was nearly lost before she digged it out)

anyway it didn't belonged to her and she agreed only to claim CC for the visual work.

 

nonetheless Sony (via a third party) steady claims copyright for the whole content, "we have the power...bla,bla" one could say.

thus she decided to form a own group of artist and lawyers who will grant their rights will be respected.

her (and of others) work can be spread freely and reselling is prohibited.

 

creative commons is not the last word, to complicated and some are pretty sure only that complicated set up to keep this little doors open for the predators.

 

we artist don't want a license we don't understand and where some have m,ore rights as others or where my right isn't clearly defined.

short and prcise it has to be and no endless articles, if and how.

 

it's NOT needed, likewise it's clear what means "thou shall not murder".

but of course if you would leave it up to them they make a work of 100 books of it only to grant that some still can murder.


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Potsmoke66
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robn, are you sure you are no lawyer, "neither yes or no"

that sounds very likely like one.

 

take it easy 😉

 

it's a NO from the side of pioneer developers, i guess that should be enough.

 

what i do not understand is why it should be important to know what was the agreement between FD and pioneer, it won't matter i guess.

it doesn't changes a thing, i understand well why you don't want to speak about details, i would say, i wouldn't have said it anyway.

 

because it's not public business, one can say.

 

 

---

 

tomm,

 

you really think it was a mistake to allow me to copy/transscript frontiers models?

 

for me it was no mistake, it was and is still my guide through modelling - well guess about that what you like fellows.

 

but yes, i see it also in this way it's not essencial for pioneer, prob. essential for my models, but not for pioneer.

 

ok, throw the dirt on me, lol

 

it's like i said just a liitle sad that it didn't has worked out in a more peaceful way.

words have been said that shouldn't have been.

people insulted that shouldn't have get.

 

all this only because of a few models and little else.

 

one thing is sad also,

pioneer doesn't "needs" either me (anymore?).

and i have to say also i don't need what's ahead, it's not what i expect or need.

not because i would be totally fixed on FFE models,

 

but in all truely say, which was the last of my models that found a way to the release?

it's to me obvious since long that i don't fit anymore.

 

somehow i lost my job in this project, i could also say i have no right to "exist" anymore.

sounds hard?

it's hard.

more hardness,

it was a very special job i had once and i do liked it.

something intermediate between a developer and a modeller, a helping hand if he wasn't to troubled in mind.

 

but both decisions, to remove the LMR and elite content make me unemployed if not worse.

i have no, absolutely no more existance in this project, for many reasons.

don't denie this, because it's true, words can be made many, but what i feel won't vanish.

it has started quite a while ago, differences are to big, a gap of which even i see it can't be closed again.

 

i was worried about this "evolution", but i'm only one and unfortunatly not a type who commands or demands.

my way of thinking and working is different, quite different.

i'm a supporter character, i like to support, not to command, that works superfine on the construction site.

i don't demand, i only say: "this is the goal, here are your tools, for questions you have me, the plan is on the table".

all i have to do then is to play the role of the helper for the helpers, sounds a bit crazy, a helper for the helpers? as a foreman? yep.

i lend them the tools, check if they have material enough to work and will carry the stuff to them when they need it,

quite uncommon if you like to lead, but that's how i lead.

in fact you could say my workers have done the cool jobs, while i did the stupid jobs, besides of having responsability and experience.

(one often misinterpreted thing is that most guess if i'm responsible i have to control everything,

that's quite wrong from my pov. you don't have to control and as more you do the less the workers have responsability,

feel "mastered" and start probably to revolt or at least they wont work or work only with unwill.

yes, i'm a "donkey" to, we are willing to do a lot, but as soon as we recognize that we been forced to, we stop working

and kick probably.)

 

and one thing you can be pretty sure of folks, the workers would have gone through the fire for me...

 

it has failed here, i don't like to go into details, simply it has failed.

 

it has made me sad and mad, but it won't help to cry neither it helps to shout.

 

---

 

it's no new thinking and such has worked always, what worries me sometimes, it seems to me such principles have been undermined by...

phew, do i have enough space here for this?

undermined by "theoretical qualities", some that stood in front and like to change this because they learned this and that in this and that business school.

someone trained them to "people have to be lead in this and that way..." (as if we would be sheep or dogs)

 

i have to say only the thinking, i mean the starting position is already wrong, "have to be lead" this is already the main problem i guess.

they don't have to be lead, them are grown up men and can decide themself.

if you give one the right to decide he will pay this back.

otherwise as well.

 

well to some of you fellows, meriocracy has never worked on the construction site for me, else i would have to command because usually i was oldest and most experienced.

 

the only thing that has worked well for me was a sort of democracy, each should decide himself and has certainly the right to vote (would have, because if you have the right you use it rarely, strangewisely).

some might think now that this must have been a "tohuwabohu", it wasn't, give a woman/man the right to decide and to vote, he will work better

more even, you will be a star, they love you.

 

but significant, even my father nearly lost his job in the age of 55 after a heart attack, he wasn't a comfortable one, and only really only the workers made it possible that he was re-engaged, the youngsters of the old "godfather" (those old industrial tycoons) had no sensibility for such and was trained exactly in this shitty way i described.

but fortunately the whole factory knew who my father was and what he did for them.

 

thats something that leaks nowadays extremely, respect.

and it doesn't really doesn't means to speak easy, respect is something different.

you can be very silent and a comfortable character but be completely respectless.

 

hey, "satan" talks never loud you can be sure...

he knows how to dress.

he knows what is the manner needed in society.

he really knows well how to bow.

 

but that doesn't makes him to a friend of mine.

prob. my "friends" are loud, they even fart loud, but certainly they are not respectless.

 

you see respect has little to do with manners and vice versa.

what helps if i call my black brother "brother", if i throw a stick between his legs next occasion, it helps a shit.

manners help little, prob. to keep a cool head, but that's already all.

 

 

and do they had a problem as we was snoring once in the npp in a large tube, after a "hard night"?

no,

they only said: "gernot take care, we can almost hear you in the control room snoring"

i have to say it went to my bones, you can imagine, to see the "boss" (section mechanics) peeping into the tube.

i won't have let that happen a second time (we chose a safer hideout 😉 )

 

nonetheless, if you look at "leibstadt" the npp is in a quite good condition, the work we did was of good quality.

but leave the boys the freedom, they will pay this back.

 

besides, of course i was a sort of a "long time member", controlled they have my work rarely, it's exactly this

they dont' had to control me, they knew "gernot does it right".

might be he is loud, might be they are a hard to handle bunch, but we can be sure.

 

else, imagine such a complex, giant and sensible organism, you can't control the work of each, it's not possible.

if you like it or not, you will have to trust that they take this as serious as you did for yourself.


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Styggron
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"No FD didn't state that they had a problem, BUT they did want to do some kind of licensing deal."

 

Finally something that makes sense and it is easy to understand.If this was told right from the start , it would prevent many arguments (most theories and half words and half ideas and half hints). As for me, I'm happy with the explanation.

 

I guess it is time to close the thread and move on...

 

My point exactly.

 

it is time to move on.


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Styggron
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It never occurred to anyone that we didn't want to discuss it at all because it doesn't help anything, any other project, affect the outcome, or drag FD or ourselves into it any further?

 

If someone goes and makes a mod with the FFE ships then our decision doesn't help them decide if they're legally ok or not.

If another project is making a Frontier/FFE clone then our decision doesn't help them decide if they're legally ok or not.

 

We were trying, very very very hard not to discuss it at all because there just isn't anything to discuss that isn't in that first post.

We had some discussions, they (FD) were awesome, out of everything that was discussed this is what we're doing.

That's all in that first post and it avoids going into what those discussions were about because they were done with a private company (FD) and what we discussed might not be something they'd consider for another project so it'd be massively rude, and dishonest, of us to expose it all.

 

The more you guys pester us for more and more information the worse it been getting for us. I'd rather just be making the damned game 🙁

 

Everything has been clarified.

 

I agree.... time to close the thread and move on.


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Potsmoke66
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tourist that's not a really big problem, we should have a little patience i guess.

 

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yes the "mods" is one of the best things that ever happened to it (everything has it's drawback).

 

but sapog, i guess it can't solve all the differences in this community...

that is, you spoke it out without a bad intention, already the idea of a "representative command".

 

i feel some strongly dislike that and additionally i feel it's not "pioneer style".

but of course i'm only gernot, i didn't started the project, i only "inherited" it.

 

but to get this again to the point, my idea was the project should work like a arthropod,

i can be wrong or looked at it from my specific view on it, yes.

 

segments of a arthropod work autonomously, nonetheless

"that thing finds food and shits"

the head with the antennas gives of course the direction for this animal,

but movement of the segments is not centrally controlled,

something that has cybernetics surprised, how could that work?

it's a rather simple rule in the case for the "doodah",

as long as any leg of another segment is lifted, don't lift, in this manner the "doodah" marches on.

it doesn't needs no brain to control this, that works autonomously without any control.

the "brain" (as far as existant in case for the arthropod) controls only feeding and direction.

 

now we have some really weird fellows on this globe (e.g. me)

and they are convinced that this would be the far better "business model" as we have nowadays usually.

 

eh, like i worked as "supporter" (construction worker, foreman), "the brain" is slave of the segments,

"the brain" serves the segments and not vice versa.

and if i look at this, only fair, because "the brain" takes profit of the movement of the segments enough.

simply because it hasn't to do this itself, "the brain" can depend on the segments without control.

 

the walk of the arthropod 😉

 

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so far to this idea

 

i know, not the first time i brought up this idea,

and i have been laughed for it, guessing how could such work in a project and if i'm such convinced it will work, why i don't go and do this myself.

i have to say a very similar situation as when it's told to you tourist, you are free to develop your own pioneer.

 

it's damned easy to say such from a throne.

 

though all this what has happened back then and now, comes around, and that's only good.

 

but it might take a little while "rome wasn't build in one day".

 

neither the swiss founded their democracy in a 100years, it took quite longer.

many changes, (r)evolutions, downfall and resurrecting all is part of such a evolution.

 

if some swiss like that or not, without the napoleonic ages in switzerland it would never had turned to what it is now.

streets have been plastered, hospitals build, schools build and a ordered school,

by ordered i mean ordered, children have been taken with military forces to school,

if the parents didn't wanted to understand what it is good for.

which has lead to a higher level of education and only this has leaded finally to the nation you see now.

people started to think different, humanism was born in french & germany,

any human should have the same rights....

U.S formed their nation and swiss copied the federal constitution from them.

(who's IP is that, the fed. constitution? not so serious Q, doesn't have to be answered)

 

a long, really a long way from those legendary (and they do are only legends) men who formed a union against

counts who sucked the blood out of their venes.

 

thus if i look sometimes at certain (r)evolutions i often think "you will have a long way to go"

a "ordered" democracy can't work, it has to be into your flesh, this needs generations .

(unfortunately else i would immediatly start a war like napoleon, but i know it can't work this way)

 

the swiss could never imagine to participate with EU fully, that's because they are far to proud of their nation.

but i feel that's right, you can be proud of it.

 

only i would wish they would find back to the "pioneering spirit" of those days when they wrote down the constitution.

instead only to wave flags senseless in the air, that doesn't makes switzerland to something special,

waving flags is very popular all around the world.

to popular.

 

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now don't say i should run for poiitics, that's impossible or near to, i'm unfortunately a foreigner.

but as i say often, politics happen everyday everywhere, between you and me.


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